DACA and the DREAM Act

[Admiral X]

Like every other politician ever. Actually that makes me think of the TSA in particular.

[excalibur]

If personally believe there should be a better program in place. If you discovered that you are legally not a US citizen, there should be a system in place to quickly show how you are innocent of the crime of being illegal because it was against you own free will and since you were raised in America at a very young age and do not even know anything from your birth country, you should be a citizen. The DACA can be exploited to keep people not actual citizens and when shit like this happens, their livelihood is threaten.

You either become a legal citizen or it is breaking the law of the land, no argument about it

[Arkle]

And of course, Jeff Sessions, a man who was considered too racist for a judgeship in the 1980s, an era where the movie Soul Man was greenlit, smiled like he was getting a BJ when he announced (and lied about what it was) the DACA repeal. If you put someone like that in a movie script, the studio heads would complain your villain was too cartoonish.

[The Romulan Republic]

What did anyone expect? Nazis gonna Nazi.

Admittedly not my most profound or nuanced commentary, but this policy is being enacted by a man who publicly condoned white supremacists including Neo-Nazis, and almost certainly, in large part, to pander to those white supremacists/Neo-Nazis. Do you deny this?

It's actually pretty horrible that you would compare deportation to mass murder. It shows a real lack of awareness.

First, many of these people will likely die if they are deported back to their countries of origin. Many illegal immigrants are in fact fleeing situations of extreme violence.

Secondly, I Googled "ethnic cleansing definition", and the very first thing I got was:

"ethnic cleansing

noun

the mass expulsion or killing of members of an unwanted ethnic or religious group in a society."

Emphasis mine.

But hey, they're only people who committed no crime other than to come here as children (often brought by their parents), who have lived and contributed to America for many years, many of whom are veterans, and who will now be torn from their lives and homes and forcibly deported to often dangerous and even life-threatening situations, at great cost to our workforce, economy, and taxpayers, in order to pander to Trump's white supremacist base. I'm not surprised that you would attempt to defend this.

Oh, and no comment on the implied forced deportation of people born in America, and thus American citizens (they'll "keep the families together")?

If you'd lived a couple hundred years ago, I'm sure you'd have given Andrew Jackson kudos for the Trail of Tears.

Apparently he doesn't remember too far back into history, or doesn't consider FDR's interment of Japanese-Americans to be "modern."

Well, World War II is over seventy years ago now, as hard as that may be to believe. Although, not to minimize the injustice of what was done to the Japanese Americans, but the numbers their are between 110 and 120,000 people according to Wikipedia, so we're talking about an eight-fold increase in the number of people getting screwed over.

Like all those police forces that threatened to refuse to enforce any new Federal gun control laws?

Not all laws are equally unjust, and not all laws are equally worthy of conscientious disobedience. Or would you say that refusing to obey, say, contemporary traffic laws is equally justified to refusing to obey the Fugitive Slave Law?

If not, then show me how any new Federal gun laws of any type (regardless of the details of said legislation or their Constitutionality) would do equivalent harm to the forced deportation of nearly a million people who are Americans by any meaningful standard.

The ubiquitous use of the lazy or outright dishonest false equivalencies is perhaps the most corrosive poison to the quality of political discourse today.

Then you really aren't any different than the people saying the hurricanes are caused by gay people and the country's acceptance of them. Again, there's that lack of awareness.

Except a) I'm not stating something factually false (that gay people cause hurricanes), and b) I am attacking an individual for taking actions that will directly harm hundreds of thousands of innocent people, rather than an entire group of people who's only "offence" is having a harmless sexual preference not approved of by the Bible.

Once again, you use false equivalencies to obfuscate your own moral myopia.

[Archon_Wing]

If personally believe there should be a better program in place. If you discovered that you are legally not a US citizen, there should be a system in place to quickly show how you are innocent of the crime of being illegal because it was against you own free will and since you were raised in America at a very young age and do not even know anything from your birth country, you should be a citizen. The DACA can be exploited to keep people not actual citizens and when shit like this happens, their livelihood is threaten.

You either become a legal citizen or it is breaking the law of the land, no argument about it

I agree that we should the programs should be focused on making people into law abiding citizens but DACA isn't very exploitable, as it only applies to people that came before 2007, eg. It wouldn't affect people that came now.

[The Romulan Republic]

If personally believe there should be a better program in place. If you discovered that you are legally not a US citizen, there should be a system in place to quickly show how you are innocent of the crime of being illegal because it was against you own free will and since you were raised in America at a very young age and do not even know anything from your birth country, you should be a citizen. The DACA can be exploited to keep people not actual citizens and when shit like this happens, their livelihood is threaten.

You either become a legal citizen or it is breaking the law of the land, no argument about it

I agree that we should the programs should be focused on making people into law abiding citizens but DACA isn't very exploitable, as it only applies to people that came before 2007, eg. It wouldn't affect people that came now.

The problem is that any really permanent and comprehensive solution has to go through Congress, not executive action. And... yeah, Congress fucking sucks these days.

[cilantro]

I personally believe that there should be a path to citizenship for all DACA members and that throwing them out will be cruel and heartless. Especially the ones that trusted the government and exposed themselves back during Obama.

[Admiral X]

Admittedly not my most profound or nuanced commentary, but this policy is being enacted by a man who publicly condoned white supremacists including Neo-Nazis, and almost certainly, in large part, to pander to those white supremacists/Neo-Nazis. Do you deny this?

I have yet to see any evidence that Trump ever condoned white supremacists. The best anyone can come up with outside of making shit up is that he didn't condemn them well enough for their liking.

First, many of these people will likely die if they are deported back to their countries of origin. Many illegal immigrants are in fact fleeing situations of extreme violence.

Citation needed.

Secondly, I Googled "ethnic cleansing definition", and the very first thing I got was:

"ethnic cleansing

noun

the mass expulsion or killing of members of an unwanted ethnic or religious group in a society."

Emphasis mine.

Guess I tend to make the association with mass killing thanks to the Nazis in WWII and the Serbs back in the '90s.

But hey, they're only people who committed no crime other than to come here as children (often brought by their parents), who have lived and contributed to America for many years, many of whom are veterans, and who will now be torn from their lives and homes and forcibly deported to often dangerous and even life-threatening situations, at great cost to our workforce, economy, and taxpayers, in order to pander to Trump's white supremacist base. I'm not surprised that you would attempt to defend this.

In no way did I voice support for mass deportations - you simply raised my hackles over your continued abuse of the word Nazi and the comparison of deportation to, as far as I was concerned, mass murder. Kind of like how PETA likes to compare poultry farms to concentration camps.

If you'd lived a couple hundred years ago, I'm sure you'd have given Andrew Jackson kudos for the Trail of Tears.

You'd be wrong. Do people just forget I'm Native, or what?

Well, World War II is over seventy years ago now, as hard as that may be to believe. Although, not to minimize the injustice of what was done to the Japanese Americans, but the numbers their are between 110 and 120,000 people according to Wikipedia, so we're talking about an eight-fold increase in the number of people getting screwed over.

So basically hyperbole.

Not all laws are equally unjust, and not all laws are equally worthy of conscientious disobedience. Or would you say that refusing to obey, say, contemporary traffic laws is equally justified to refusing to obey the Fugitive Slave Law?

Again, that you would compare such things only implies being out of touch. But at least you've shown that I hit that nail right on the head.

The ubiquitous use of the lazy or outright dishonest false equivalencies is perhaps the most corrosive poison to the quality of political discourse today.

You don't say?

Except a) I'm not stating something factually false (that gay people cause hurricanes), and b) I am attacking an individual for taking actions that will directly harm hundreds of thousands of innocent people, rather than an entire group of people who's only "offence" is having a harmless sexual preference not approved of by the Bible.

Once again, you use false equivalencies to obfuscate your own moral myopia.

I'm not obfuscating anything - I'm pointing out your hypocrisies and how you make excuses to get around that cognitive dissonance.

[Admiral X]

I personally believe that there should be a path to citizenship for all DACA members and that throwing them out will be cruel and heartless. Especially the ones that trusted the government and exposed themselves back during Obama.

Which really just shows you that the government can never really be trusted and must be constantly checked. Ironically, this illustrates quite well the reason why gun rights supporters fight tooth and nail against any kind of registration list.

[The Romulan Republic]

I have yet to see any evidence that Trump ever condoned white supremacists. The best anyone can come up with outside of making shit up is that he didn't condemn them well enough for their liking.

He had to be pressured into explicitly condemning them after one of them drove a car ISIS-style into a group of peaceful protesters, murdering an innocent woman and injuring many others. He then tried to portray them as morally equivalent to their opponents, as though to deflect the brunt of the blame from them and to give them mainstream legitimacy.

Even other Republicans saw that this was wrong. Hell, white supremacists were reportedly delighted by it, and took it as the support that it was.

Its pretty much just you who's apparently unable, or unwilling, to see it.

Citation needed.

You want a citation that that immigrants are often leaving dangerous and violent situations? Really?

Guess I tend to make the association with mass killing thanks to the Nazis in WWII and the Serbs back in the '90s.

Just admit that you made a mistake.

In no way did I voice support for mass deportations -

Yet pretty much everything you post in this topic is either trying to downplay the severity of what Trump is threatening, attacking its opponents, or trying to change the topic. So if I reached a false conclusion about your motives, maybe its because you have given every indication that that is, in fact, your position.

But let's clear this up, once and for all:

Do you, or do you not, support the deportation of 800,000-plus mostly law-abiding immigrants previously protected by DACA?

you simply raised my hackles over your continued abuse of the word Nazi and the comparison of deportation to, as far as I was concerned, mass murder.

And you were wrong.

You made a mistake. It happens.

Kind of like how PETA likes to compare poultry farms to concentration camps.

Except nothing like that, because a) my definition of ethnic cleansing was more accurate than yours', and b) Trump has, while not declaring himself a Nazi, pandered too and been supported by Nazis. On national television.

You'd be wrong. Do people just forget I'm Native, or what?

I wasn't aware of that. If you mentioned it to me before and I forgot it, my apologies.

But the Trail of Tears is actually not the worst comparison for the worst case scenario of a DACA repeal. Oh, it will probably be done less messily, more high-tech., rather than physically marching thousands of people cross-country, so that's something, I guess. And doubtlessly one can claim that the Native Americans had a stronger claim on this land than anyone else.

But at the end of the day, it is still a large number of mostly innocent people being forced from their homes into dangerous conditions, where some of them will die, for reasons that are obviously based, at least in part, on race.

IIRC, Trump also considers Andrew Jackson a favorite former President.

So basically hyperbole.

Err, not, not really.

Again, that you would compare such things only implies being out of touch. But at least you've shown that I hit that nail right on the head.

My entire point was that those two examples I gave are not comparable- that not all laws equally merit principled disobedience.

Or do you mean that the Fugitive Slave Law is not comparable to the repeal of DACA? If so, I agree. I merely chose the Fugitive Slave Law as a well-known historical example of a law meriting principled disobedience.

You don't say?

You're the one who keeps engaging in it (and then misrepresenting me as doing so).

I'm not obfuscating anything - I'm pointing out your hypocrisies and how you make excuses to get around that cognitive dissonance.

Do you mean the hypocrisies you invented after misrepresenting and straw-manning my arguments?

And then you try to change the topic onto a gun control debate. Priceless.