I finally got around to watching B5 on Prime, and decided to jot down my random thoughts because... well, what is the point of this forum if not navel-gazing? I'm 99% unspoiled - what I knew heading in boils down to this:
1. One of the actors in the first season had health problems and had to be written out of the series.
2. The Vorlon-Shadow war exists.
3. There was initially a sort of rivalry between B5 and DS9 fans when they first aired, but eventually settled down to fans mostly enjoying both.
4. I will likely want to skip large parts of S1...
5. ...but I shouldn't, because it sets a lot of things in motion that are not realized until much later.
That's about it. I'm avoiding Chuck's reviews because I don't want to be unduly influenced by his views. Anyway, having finished S1 last night, I'll start with my thoughts in the next post so I don't leave a wall of text.
My (mostly) unspoiled watch of Babylon 5
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Independent George
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Yukaphile
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Re: My (mostly) unspoiled watch of Babylon 5
Oh boy, I still have to finish. I made it to early Season 4, and... you're in for a treat!
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
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Madner Kami
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Re: My (mostly) unspoiled watch of Babylon 5
I can't help but spoil it: Babylon Station will be destroyed.
"If you get shot up by an A6M Reisen and your plane splits into pieces - does that mean it's divided by Zero?
- xoxSAUERKRAUTxox
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Yukaphile
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Re: My (mostly) unspoiled watch of Babylon 5
... you goddamned tease...
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
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Independent George
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Re: My (mostly) unspoiled watch of Babylon 5
I'm not going to do an episode-by-episode reviews because (1) I'm lazy, and (2) nothing in S1 really merited it. I was a teenager when B5 first aired, and watching S1 made me remember why I never bothered with the show back then even though I was a hard core SF fan at the time. As a whole, it felt clunky, stiff, and conventional. The dialogue in particular is painful to listen to - all the sermonizing speeches and hammy monologues feel like they could be taken straight from TOS, and not in a good way. I can sometimes see the seed of what could be great television in it, especially as we get near the end, but the execution really leaves a lot to be desired.
For example, Mind Wars. There are some really good ideas underlying it (like questions about just how powerful Psy-Corps are, and what their agenda is), but the execution is just terrible. I didn't buy romance between Winters and, ahem, IRONHEART; the first half of the episode hinges on Winters' internal conflicts, but since we barely know her at this point, it has no emotional resonance. The episode ends with IRONHEART turning into an energy being(!), and Checkhov returning to Psy-Corps with a dead partner and a terrible cover story that will be revealed as a lie the second he steps back into an office full of psychics. But, hey, all the main characters are alright, so goodbye, Chekhov, and on to the next episode! Really, all throughout S1, Winters doesn't seem to have a purpose besides look pretty while holding a hand to her forehead while a sound effect plays.
Of the main cast, I think Ivanova would be a much more enjoyable if she didn't preface half of her lines with, "I'm Russian". Show, don't tell - she is really good at being sarcastic and cynical, there's no need to explain everything as "a Russian thing". I also think the actress is way better than the dialogue at this point; every attempt to give her backstory is just clumsy and terrible, especially when a single line reading of "Repeat after me: Ivanova is always right. Ivanova is God." does so much more to establish her in our minds than all the weepy character moments put together. The episode where her Rabbi comes to the station was especially egregious to me - WTF were all these people doing going over her head to tell her how to grieve? It certainly hasn't hurt her work at all; heck, she arrested her ex-boyfriend without incident. She's a professional.
I'm not sure how I feel about Sinclair. I know this is an artifact of television production (where you have limited budgetand have to pay more for actors with lines rather than anonymous extras, so you try to have the main characters do as much as possible), but it kind of annoys me to see the commanding officer of the station flying a combat mission in the first episode... then doing even more again and again. I appreciated that one moment where Garibaldi confronts him about it, but that's the end. I had hoped that they would have explored this further and showed the negative effects of his insistence on ignoring his command responsibilities to charge right into the fray, but nope; by the end of the season, he and his XO depart to land on an alien surface that has already shot at their ships, leaving a cop in charge of the station when an Earthforce cruiser arrives to take command. Gee, too bad that the station's commanding officer wasn't on duty to deal with that situation, eh?
Garibaldi seems really bad at his job - he roughs up petty crooks, gets into bar fights, and can't secure either his prisoners or his VIPs - so the reveal that he's a recovering alcoholic who was terrible at his numerous previous jobs actually makes perfect sense. Except... he's managed to fail upwards into a prestige position at a diplomatic station where discretion and professionalism should be at a premium. But the Babylon stations seem to suffer the Spinal Tap Drummer's Curse, so maybe that's why he still has his job. Then again, the evil conspiracy is really terrible at their jobs, too, and left him alive in the middle of a hallway instead of disposing of the body. Fair is fair, I suppose; maybe the criminals are deliberately toning things down so they can keep Garibaldi on the job instead of having a real security chief. I mean, EB Farnum is a crimelord there, so it kind of makes sense.
https://youtu.be/nQ_3Ngaw4yc
G'Kar is probably my favorite character so far, though he really doesn't get much air time aside from hamming it up with Londo. He gets just enough character development that he's not just another obvious villain, and he even seems more sympathetic than Londo at times (who seems obviously written to be the one we're supposed to side with). I hope we get more of him in S2. Londo feels a bit like the Neelix of the show - the comic relief character we're supposed to like, but whom I really can't stand watching.
Delenn feels like another stock Space Elf, except she's also a member of the secret society that rules the Minbari and did something shady to Sinclair during the war that is eventually going to be revealed to be beneficial, because Space Elf. I don't have much sense of her character besides the irritating Space Elf traits, including immunity from accountability. I mean, she nearly started a war by stealing the body of a Minbari war hero from under the noses of the Earthers. (Granted, it was from under Garibaldi's nose, but still). If "not stealing a dead hero's body from a state funeral" wasn't covered in the Minbari diplomatic handbook, it's probably only because nobody thought it needed to be included.
Franklin... exists. He seems like a stock SF doctor character without much personality on his own, right down to his diatribe against his former mentor about "taking shortcuts", yada yada. Everything about Infection and The Quality of Mercy felt like it could have been cribbed from every other SF show in the last 50 years - except he's somehow forgotten that he has a magic alien healing device when the chief of security got shot right after revealing a conspiracy to kill the president.
ETA: Well, crap, looks like I wrote a wall of text regardless.
For example, Mind Wars. There are some really good ideas underlying it (like questions about just how powerful Psy-Corps are, and what their agenda is), but the execution is just terrible. I didn't buy romance between Winters and, ahem, IRONHEART; the first half of the episode hinges on Winters' internal conflicts, but since we barely know her at this point, it has no emotional resonance. The episode ends with IRONHEART turning into an energy being(!), and Checkhov returning to Psy-Corps with a dead partner and a terrible cover story that will be revealed as a lie the second he steps back into an office full of psychics. But, hey, all the main characters are alright, so goodbye, Chekhov, and on to the next episode! Really, all throughout S1, Winters doesn't seem to have a purpose besides look pretty while holding a hand to her forehead while a sound effect plays.
Of the main cast, I think Ivanova would be a much more enjoyable if she didn't preface half of her lines with, "I'm Russian". Show, don't tell - she is really good at being sarcastic and cynical, there's no need to explain everything as "a Russian thing". I also think the actress is way better than the dialogue at this point; every attempt to give her backstory is just clumsy and terrible, especially when a single line reading of "Repeat after me: Ivanova is always right. Ivanova is God." does so much more to establish her in our minds than all the weepy character moments put together. The episode where her Rabbi comes to the station was especially egregious to me - WTF were all these people doing going over her head to tell her how to grieve? It certainly hasn't hurt her work at all; heck, she arrested her ex-boyfriend without incident. She's a professional.
I'm not sure how I feel about Sinclair. I know this is an artifact of television production (where you have limited budgetand have to pay more for actors with lines rather than anonymous extras, so you try to have the main characters do as much as possible), but it kind of annoys me to see the commanding officer of the station flying a combat mission in the first episode... then doing even more again and again. I appreciated that one moment where Garibaldi confronts him about it, but that's the end. I had hoped that they would have explored this further and showed the negative effects of his insistence on ignoring his command responsibilities to charge right into the fray, but nope; by the end of the season, he and his XO depart to land on an alien surface that has already shot at their ships, leaving a cop in charge of the station when an Earthforce cruiser arrives to take command. Gee, too bad that the station's commanding officer wasn't on duty to deal with that situation, eh?
Garibaldi seems really bad at his job - he roughs up petty crooks, gets into bar fights, and can't secure either his prisoners or his VIPs - so the reveal that he's a recovering alcoholic who was terrible at his numerous previous jobs actually makes perfect sense. Except... he's managed to fail upwards into a prestige position at a diplomatic station where discretion and professionalism should be at a premium. But the Babylon stations seem to suffer the Spinal Tap Drummer's Curse, so maybe that's why he still has his job. Then again, the evil conspiracy is really terrible at their jobs, too, and left him alive in the middle of a hallway instead of disposing of the body. Fair is fair, I suppose; maybe the criminals are deliberately toning things down so they can keep Garibaldi on the job instead of having a real security chief. I mean, EB Farnum is a crimelord there, so it kind of makes sense.
https://youtu.be/nQ_3Ngaw4yc
G'Kar is probably my favorite character so far, though he really doesn't get much air time aside from hamming it up with Londo. He gets just enough character development that he's not just another obvious villain, and he even seems more sympathetic than Londo at times (who seems obviously written to be the one we're supposed to side with). I hope we get more of him in S2. Londo feels a bit like the Neelix of the show - the comic relief character we're supposed to like, but whom I really can't stand watching.
Delenn feels like another stock Space Elf, except she's also a member of the secret society that rules the Minbari and did something shady to Sinclair during the war that is eventually going to be revealed to be beneficial, because Space Elf. I don't have much sense of her character besides the irritating Space Elf traits, including immunity from accountability. I mean, she nearly started a war by stealing the body of a Minbari war hero from under the noses of the Earthers. (Granted, it was from under Garibaldi's nose, but still). If "not stealing a dead hero's body from a state funeral" wasn't covered in the Minbari diplomatic handbook, it's probably only because nobody thought it needed to be included.
Franklin... exists. He seems like a stock SF doctor character without much personality on his own, right down to his diatribe against his former mentor about "taking shortcuts", yada yada. Everything about Infection and The Quality of Mercy felt like it could have been cribbed from every other SF show in the last 50 years - except he's somehow forgotten that he has a magic alien healing device when the chief of security got shot right after revealing a conspiracy to kill the president.
ETA: Well, crap, looks like I wrote a wall of text regardless.
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Yukaphile
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Re: My (mostly) unspoiled watch of Babylon 5
Holy shit... I don't think I could address all those, so I'll focus on one, in that G'Kar clearly still is a villain back here. I mean, his creepy lusts towards human women and how he proposed "creating" new Narn telepaths with Lyta... it just strikes me as harassment.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
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Yukaphile
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Re: My (mostly) unspoiled watch of Babylon 5
My favorite episode is "Severed Dreams."
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
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Independent George
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Re: My (mostly) unspoiled watch of Babylon 5
I'd agree G'Kar and the Narn are villains, but from what we've seen so far, not an especially egregious one. Less villainous than the Ferengi in early TNG. That said, I disagree regarding his thing for human women (well, aside from issues of basic biology that is). From what we've seen, it's either consensual, or he's hiring prostitutes (which, if legal on the station, is probably also consensual). That is way less creepy than the fact that slavery is apparently permitted and openly practiced on B5.Yukaphile wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:56 pm Holy shit... I don't think I could address all those, so I'll focus on one, in that G'Kar clearly still is a villain back here. I mean, his creepy lusts towards human women and how he proposed "creating" new Narn telepaths with Lyta... it just strikes me as harassment.
He made a business proposal to Lyta - after being introduced by Ivanova - to incorporate her genes into the Narn telepathic program. When she refused, he accepted it gracefully and cheerfully. That's way less intrusive than Psi-Corps drugging or imprisoning anyone who refuses to join them. I'd bet anything they've got their own eugenics program going on behind the scenes, with IRONHEART probably having already supplied quite a bit of the genetic material. (No, I just can't let that name go. IRONHEART!).
The offer is creepy only in the general sense that they'd be buying someone else's genetic materials to incorporate into a breeding program - it's not like he offered to personally impregnate her. There are no threats, deception, or coercion involved - merely the offer of a commercial transaction. The costs and benefits to it are transparent and, as stated before, they were openly refused without reprisal.
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Yukaphile
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Re: My (mostly) unspoiled watch of Babylon 5
It's still creepy as hell. What a smooth talker, eh? To treat poor Lyta as a prostitute...
Wait till you get to Season 2. I have serious issues with how the Psi Corps' breeding program is presented on screen.
Wait till you get to Season 2. I have serious issues with how the Psi Corps' breeding program is presented on screen.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
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Durandal_1707
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Re: My (mostly) unspoiled watch of Babylon 5
The main reason for Ironheart was due to the fact that Lyta didn't stay around after the pilot. There was a planned storyline stemming from the effects of Lyta having gone inside Kosh's mind, and since Talia is Lyta's replacement, they needed a way to get her headed down a similar path.
