The Left was Anti-War even during the lead up to WW2 (and the Right was not)

[MithrandirOlorin]

Not to mention that in this scenerio, Americans are not involved. Which means relies on the Soviets taking the mantle of defeating Nazi Germany. Which means instead of a split Germany, we have a full blown Russian controlled communist Germany in the 1950's. Maybe even a communist Soviet France as well, perhaps for a time.

That is precisely the outcome I consider preferable.

What a communist Europe under the thumb of Russia?

I have my issues with Soviet Style Communism as a Kautskyist, but it's still better then Capitalism.

[Madner Kami]

Yesyes. Keep dividing the ideology into ever more tiny fractals and pretend as if the bad outcomes aren't inherent to the ideology if it's applied by real people, just so you can repeat the same unaltered mantra you spouted twenty years ago.

[Riedquat]

I have my issues with Soviet Style Communism as a Kautskyist, but it's still better then Capitalism.

In terms of how things actually work in the real world, or in terms of it working how its strongest advocates claim it should (and who usually ignore inconvenient truths like human nature)?

Communism was a reaction to the genuine flaws of a capitalist system. Unfortunately it turned out to have even bigger flaws.

You often get lunatics claiming that the problem is that things aren't capitalist or communist enough, which is why they don't work. That's a claim that stands up to no scrutiny whatsoever, and is back to denying the facts of the real world we live in. No extreme ever works, and the closer you get the more it fails, as moving too far towards it can only be achieved by crushing anyone who disagrees with it. The usual tactic is to then blame those people for the mess (because they're obviously scum, right, and thus deserve to be crushed anyway - if they were decent people they'd agree with us!) A fairly standard bit of flawed self-justifying circular reasoning, one that we seem to encounter in every discussion on every subject these days.

[MithrandirOlorin]

I have my issues with Soviet Style Communism as a Kautskyist, but it's still better then Capitalism.

In terms of how things actually work in the real world, or in terms of it working how its strongest advocates claim it should (and who usually ignore inconvenient truths like human nature)?

Communism was a reaction to the genuine flaws of a capitalist system. Unfortunately it turned out to have even bigger flaws.

You often get lunatics claiming that the problem is that things aren't capitalist or communist enough, which is why they don't work. That's a claim that stands up to no scrutiny whatsoever, and is back to denying the facts of the real world we live in. No extreme ever works, and the closer you get the more it fails, as moving too far towards it can only be achieved by crushing anyone who disagrees with it. The usual tactic is to then blame those people for the mess (because they're obviously scum, right, and thus deserve to be crushed anyway - if they were decent people they'd agree with us!) A fairly standard bit of flawed self-justifying circular reasoning, one that we seem to encounter in every discussion on every subject these days.

I singled out Kautsky as a Joke mostly, it's not a matter of me thinking only one very specific sub genre of Communism can work. I won't tolerate any bashing of Cuba or Vietnam.

[Riedquat]

I've no idea who or what Kautsky is, so that went over my head.

"Won't tolerate any bashing of Cuba or Vietnam"?! Unless they're flawless, which they're not, tough, they'll get bashed. Any and every government needs to get bashed. Be very afraid of any that try to prevent it.

[MithrandirOlorin]

I've no idea who or what Kautsky is, so that went over my head.

"Won't tolerate any bashing of Cuba or Vietnam"?! Unless they're flawless, which they're not, tough, they'll get bashed. Any and every government needs to get bashed. Be very afraid of any that try to prevent it.

Their issues are for them to work out internally, not for us western WASPs to criticize from a distance.

[Madner Kami]

I've no idea who or what Kautsky is, so that went over my head.

Karl Kautsky, 1854-1938. Austrian-born (in Prague), german Social-Democrat with marxist leanings and one of the co-founders of the USPD (Indipendent Social Democratic Party of Germany, a late-war far-left off-shoot of the SPD, Social-Democratic Party of Germany). Politically, his position is meandering between Social-Democracy and Marxism, as he criticized both Social-Democracy and Bolshevism and yet advocated for their principles. And no, I don't think that was a joke of yours, Olorin, because otherwise it would've been a complete non-sequitor here and you've done that before in earnest (assigning yourself to a fringe group on the left spectrum sitting between the chairs, in order to deflect criticism of your thought-constructs).

I won't tolerate any bashing of Cuba or Vietnam.

[...]

Their issues are for them to work out internally, not for us western WASPs to criticize from a distance.

Geezus fucking christ... So unless I am a director, I am not allowed to criticize a director. Or an actor or camera-man. Heck, why are we even discussing anything, if I can't criticize a politician until I am one myself? Or, soon to be as displayed before, I can't criticize a left-leaning politician unless I am one myself. Or can't criticize Kautsky unless I am Kautsky. Eff off with this bullshit.

[hammerofglass]

Ok so seriously: MithandirOloron, have you been outside? Because this is like three levels of purity testing past where you could ever actually work with your local community network or co-op or whatever it is leftists in your part if the world do IRL.

[MithrandirOlorin]

"Social-Democracy" didn't mean then what it usually means now. I do identify with Kautsky in certain contexts but don't always agree. On the Subject of Russia specially I think the Left SRs should have won. But I also side with the Possibilists when looking at the history of French Socialism.

[Riedquat]

I've no idea who or what Kautsky is, so that went over my head.

"Won't tolerate any bashing of Cuba or Vietnam"?! Unless they're flawless, which they're not, tough, they'll get bashed. Any and every government needs to get bashed. Be very afraid of any that try to prevent it.

Their issues are for them to work out internally, not for us western WASPs to criticize from a distance.

Erm, everyone has a right to an opinion. Well, other than in authoritarian dumps. Because allowing people to have an opinion in those might mean people can work out the internal issues, which those are the top generally aren't very keen on, since they're both the cause of them and do very nicely out of them.