Wargriffin wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:21 pm
Not if he plays "this is what adhering and clinging to tradition has brought us" card I mean it is noted that several Klingons are dissatisfied and disillusioned by their current society
I mean Martok is pretty much the poster boy for someone the Klingon traditions FAILED which I'm pretty sure alot of the younger Klingons who can't move up the laddeer due to family would immediately rally behind
He was rejected out of a higher position due to a personal grudge, only getting the chance to command do to the chance death of his commanding officer in battle to become one of the most recognized and respected commanders who almost had his life thrown away again due to petty grudges of a chancellor more worried about his position then the empire
Martok could easily spin that as the Gods showing him favor, Not only showing thier favor to him but also Worf 'Yet another Klingon screwed by the system who saved the Empire' being his staunch ally Both who really should be heroes of the Klingon people.
honestly Online having yet another duras show up and dispose Martok was for the sack of having Klingon enemies... but in all honesty The Klingons race should be at a crossroads of conscience similar to how the WWs changed everything
I know Chuck thinks Martok's gonna get eaten alive by the politicians but even they have to see at this point the Empire HAS to change or it will die
They might see the writing on the wall, but they might not want to concede the power that they've worked so hard to obtain. After all, Klingon houses working for personal and short term political gain is a sort of constant in the Klingon High Council. Martok may be able to clean house, but Gowron was better at playing politics when he did so, and he still had to face a civil war.
Martok is the better general, and well respected by the common man. But he'll still face stiff resistance from those who view him as an outsider. Also, remember that Worf is less a 'hero of the empire' and more 'that outsider who sided against us on our glorious campaign for new territory'.
Next to "The Magnificent Ferengi" this was my favorite Ferengi episode. A lot of that was due to the unlikely chemistry between Grilka and Quark. Grilka's actress did a great job of portraying her growing respect of Quark through the episode.
As for the B-plot, I know I've said this before, but I still don't understand why it was so hard for them to find something for Keiko to do. They are the last outpost before exploring unknown space, surely a seasoned botanist to study all the new plant life they discover on these planets would be important to have?
BlackoutCreature2 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:25 pm
Next to "The Magnificent Ferengi" this was my favorite Ferengi episode. A lot of that was due to the unlikely chemistry between Grilka and Quark. Grilka's actress did a great job of portraying her growing respect of Quark through the episode.
As for the B-plot, I know I've said this before, but I still don't understand why it was so hard for them to find something for Keiko to do. They are the last outpost before exploring unknown space, surely a seasoned botanist to study all the new plant life they discover on these planets would be important to have?
I agree. Keiko should have been allowed to study the plants on the local planet sooner. She is skilled and intelligent. Or be allowed to take trips to other planets period. It would have been a good source of plot for the episodes they needed think of a plot.
BlackoutCreature2 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:25 pm
Next to "The Magnificent Ferengi" this was my favorite Ferengi episode. A lot of that was due to the unlikely chemistry between Grilka and Quark. Grilka's actress did a great job of portraying her growing respect of Quark through the episode.
As for the B-plot, I know I've said this before, but I still don't understand why it was so hard for them to find something for Keiko to do. They are the last outpost before exploring unknown space, surely a seasoned botanist to study all the new plant life they discover on these planets would be important to have?
I think it's mostly because they were thinking that this was going to be a space western, with all the trappings, and they were fitting everything into it as much of it as possible. Odo was the sheriff, Quark was the local bartender, and Keiko was slotted into the local schoolteacher role, with Nog and Jake acting as the town's local miscreant kids.
They pretty much abandoned this sort of focus by season 2, but that's where they put her, and rarely used her after that, with her only making a few appearances after that.
Wargriffin wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:21 pmMartok could easily spin that as the Gods showing him favor, Not only showing their favor to him but also Worf as 'Yet another Klingon screwed by the system who saved the Empire' being his staunch ally, both who really should be heroes of the Klingon people.
You're forgetting that the Klingons killed their gods, so there's no "Mandate of Heaven"-style tradition to fall back on. You want power in the Klingon Empire, you'll have to get it on your own merits, not from sucking up to some long-dead gods.
Luckily for Martok and Worf, they both abundantly qualify on the merits part.
Wargriffin wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:42 pm
I mean if you want an in universe answer... all it would take is a fairly hardline Traditionalist and a mostly Traditionalist council to make the High Council a boys club and relegate women back to their roles
I still have a big problem with that though. These women are warriors, they love fighting as much as the men and have access to heavy firepower. Let me ask a question: how many of their wives, daughters and mothers are the men realistically going to gut with a Bat'Leth before giving up on any war? The only answer that makes sense in-universe is that they are quite happy with the way things are.
And please no one bring up the real world. Women in Saudi Arabia do not have access to military grade equipment, are not people trained from birth in warfare, and have little in the means to communicate with one another to rally. Klingon women simply do not have the David and Goliath situation that human women frequently have done.
Its also worth noting that according to Worf ''Klingons like strong women''. And we have seen this with Martok too. Wouldn't they like having women in office?
The only explanation that I'm aware of came from the The Lost Era novel, "The Art of the Impossible." It's said that after Azetbur died, a reactionary (no, seriously, that's what even other Klingons called him) named Kaarg became Chancellor and he decreed women could not be Chancellor or serve on the High Council. And ... that was that, I guess. I know, it's a lame explanation.
If you wanted to, maybe you could say that as much as the Klingon Empire needed the Federation alliance, they still resented it. The fact that it came about under Azetbur, a woman, maybe did a lot to sour influential Klingons against female leaders.
Wargriffin wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:21 pm
Not if he plays "this is what adhering and clinging to tradition has brought us" card I mean it is noted that several Klingons are dissatisfied and disillusioned by their current society
I mean Martok is pretty much the poster boy for someone the Klingon traditions FAILED which I'm pretty sure alot of the younger Klingons who can't move up the laddeer due to family would immediately rally behind
He was rejected out of a higher position due to a personal grudge, only getting the chance to command do to the chance death of his commanding officer in battle to become one of the most recognized and respected commanders who almost had his life thrown away again due to petty grudges of a chancellor more worried about his position then the empire
Martok could easily spin that as the Gods showing him favor, Not only showing thier favor to him but also Worf 'Yet another Klingon screwed by the system who saved the Empire' being his staunch ally Both who really should be heroes of the Klingon people.
honestly Online having yet another duras show up and dispose Martok was for the sack of having Klingon enemies... but in all honesty The Klingons race should be at a crossroads of conscience similar to how the WWs changed everything
I know Chuck thinks Martok's gonna get eaten alive by the politicians but even they have to see at this point the Empire HAS to change or it will die
They might see the writing on the wall, but they might not want to concede the power that they've worked so hard to obtain. After all, Klingon houses working for personal and short term political gain is a sort of constant in the Klingon High Council. Martok may be able to clean house, but Gowron was better at playing politics when he did so, and he still had to face a civil war.
Martok is the better general, and well respected by the common man. But he'll still face stiff resistance from those who view him as an outsider. Also, remember that Worf is less a 'hero of the empire' and more 'that outsider who sided against us on our glorious campaign for new territory'.
True but with the Civil war and Gowron himself weeding out his rivals only to have patsy yes men left, one has to wonder just how much of the political elite is actually left that can be a real threat to Martok or only got their spot do to Gowron
"When you rule by fear, your greatest weakness is the one who's no longer afraid."
I really like this episode. It shows how Quark can get himself into trouble with his greed, and how he can think his way out of problems too.
It also shows that Quark has more courage than it might seem, because he literally risked the beheading to solve the situation.
Plus the interplay between Quark & Grilka, was hilarious.
Mabus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:49 pm
Remember that the Klingons were originally based on the Soviets/Communists, who despite being all about "equality" and all, in reality weren't doing what they always said.
"It's tradition, and women are allowed to lead if there is no male heir."
I'm also betting the Klingon women wield power through their relationships with their spouses, and in how they raise their children.
You know, with the Klingon's fondness of quoting "tradition" to explain anything and everything--and their willingness to blatantly steal from human culture (e.g. Shakespeare)--now I'm imagining a bunch of Klingons getting drunk and singing the songs to "Fiddler on the Roof."
