pilight wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 7:51 pm
Shouldn't uniforms be, um uniform?
Yes. Though even with some uniforms there is still a degree of individualism that could be put on the uniform (patches, badges, ribbons, medals, even a name tag, etc) but it's all to code.
When I was in, we had a uniform that had now been discountiued nicknamed the Jonny Cash's. Working dress blue, but not the Cracker Jack uniform you associate with sailors. Anyesy these Jonny Cash's there were two different hats we could wear a garrison hat and the white sailor hat. But you could really customize the hell out of the uniform even down to what kind of tie clip. I always felt it was a slick uniform.
Female sailors though had to wear their own specialized hat (cover) but had the same freedom with the uniform. Though even with their uniform there was some differences, like they could wear below the knee dresses, or slacks. The only real uniform that was nearly uniform among the sexes was the dress whites (Cracker Jack uniform but white, like Popeye in some of his cartoons).
We USED to be able to cut Star Trek some slack with changing the uniform every show even though it was already stretching credibility that they would change the unform sometimes within a year or two. But when we reached ''Generations'' and there was both the TNG and DS9 uniforms side by side? Or when STD had those repulsive blue uniforms and suddenly introduced the Enterprise with TOS uniforms? Come on.
And as Chuck once noted regarding Ro Laren: you cannot wear a small earring that is a fundamental part of your culture, but you CAN wear a catsuit that shows your cleavage and a huge metal baldric. And lets not forget ''Learning Curve'' over on Voyager: no earring, no headband, no necklace.
The show is dumb in this regard and it makes no sense. We have to admit this.
We used to argue whether Star Trek or Star Wars was better. Now we argue which one is worse.
clearspira wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 12:20 pm
The show is dumb in this regard and it makes no sense. We have to admit this.
It does feel like the frequency of the dumb has sped up. TNG managed to keep (essentially) the same uniform through its entire run. Minor tailoring/fabric changes don't really matter as much. Then DS9 got switched up by First Contact (for the better, IMO) and Voyager kept DS9's uniform the entire run (even when they had the opportunity to improve).
Kurtzman Trek feels like it's every two years we're getting a new design, and that's largely because they wrote themselves into that position by using a non-canonical design immediately before changing to something resembling the canon uniforms of the era (and implying an uglier version of the Wrath of Khan uniforms is right around the corner as well), while in the future Discovery has changed twice more (because they didn't plan ahead for how drab grey is when everything is black and grey in the sets). And Lower Decks has dropped the FC for yet another design... that doesn't line up with Picard's a few years later.
The current production design is more concerned with using the Uniform to say something about the show they're on than any kind of worldbuilding consistency across shows or the franchise. But all they're really saying is that they have a lack of concern.
Uniform changes in the real world does happen more often than people think. Not the dress uniforms, they usually stay the same. The Navy for a long time played around with the idea of getting rid of the cra ker jack uniform.
But the working uniforms, the camos, etc they are changed more often than you think.
US Navy went from the classic light blue work shirt, dark pants dungarees with white sailor hat to similar color scheme but now with a lighter material. During this time they also went from basically spray painting the rank, name and branch on the uniform to stitched patches and the command ball cap. Then within ten years the US Navy discarded that whole uniform style to the 'aquaflage' that you see now. But from when they were introduced back in 2009 to now they have undergone some improvements.
Summary: the US Navy went through three major uniform changes on one type from 1999-2009. Not including small changes and additions.
McAvoy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 7:42 pm
Uniform changes in the real world does happen more often than people think. Not the dress uniforms, they usually stay the same. The Navy for a long time played around with the idea of getting rid of the cra ker jack uniform.
But the working uniforms, the camos, etc they are changed more often than you think.
US Navy went from the classic light blue work shirt, dark pants dungarees with white sailor hat to similar color scheme but now with a lighter material. During this time they also went from basically spray painting the rank, name and branch on the uniform to stitched patches and the command ball cap. Then within ten years the US Navy discarded that whole uniform style to the 'aquaflage' that you see now. But from when they were introduced back in 2009 to now they have undergone some improvements.
Summary: the US Navy went through three major uniform changes on one type from 1999-2009. Not including small changes and additions.
I imagine that a lot of that is driven by changes in environment and technology, though, no? Or is it change for change's sake because the Quartermaster needs something to do?
It feels like it makes less sense the further into Starfleet we get that they'd need to change designs. It seems more likely they'd have specialized wardrobes for specific situations, but A Starship Crew's needs will have been figured out and not subject to change very much after a hundred years+ of optimizations. I can buy the ENT->TOS->TNG changes. It's the Discovery, First Contact, SNW, Picard, and LD extreme density of changes that make a lot less sense. At least the Ent->Disco->TOS feels like it was an attempt to blur between them (unnecessarily, IMO), and FC was probably a lot more comfortable (and more forgiving), but those are out-of-universe changes and not really justifiable if we assume someone at Starfleet's job is making the best uniforms possible.
McAvoy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 7:42 pm
Uniform changes in the real world does happen more often than people think. Not the dress uniforms, they usually stay the same. The Navy for a long time played around with the idea of getting rid of the cra ker jack uniform.
But the working uniforms, the camos, etc they are changed more often than you think.
US Navy went from the classic light blue work shirt, dark pants dungarees with white sailor hat to similar color scheme but now with a lighter material. During this time they also went from basically spray painting the rank, name and branch on the uniform to stitched patches and the command ball cap. Then within ten years the US Navy discarded that whole uniform style to the 'aquaflage' that you see now. But from when they were introduced back in 2009 to now they have undergone some improvements.
Summary: the US Navy went through three major uniform changes on one type from 1999-2009. Not including small changes and additions.
I imagine that a lot of that is driven by changes in environment and technology, though, no? Or is it change for change's sake because the Quartermaster needs something to do?
It feels like it makes less sense the further into Starfleet we get that they'd need to change designs. It seems more likely they'd have specialized wardrobes for specific situations, but A Starship Crew's needs will have been figured out and not subject to change very much after a hundred years+ of optimizations. I can buy the ENT->TOS->TNG changes. It's the Discovery, First Contact, SNW, Picard, and LD extreme density of changes that make a lot less sense. At least the Ent->Disco->TOS feels like it was an attempt to blur between them (unnecessarily, IMO), and FC was probably a lot more comfortable (and more forgiving), but those are out-of-universe changes and not really justifiable if we assume someone at Starfleet's job is making the best uniforms possible.
Combination of different trying to be up to date with the uniforms in style, material improvements and probably to keep some department in the Navy funded, with something to do.
The military does have spealized uniforms for alot of climates. Most of which have been phased out. One ridiculous looking one I remember was a short sleeve work shirt with above knee shorts and then combined with knee high tube socks. Looks stupid as hell. The Navy also has the coveralls that I think many are familiar with which were supposed to be phased out too, but received criticism throughout the entire fleet. And I do mean entire fleet. It's a common uniform even the officers wear and it's by far the most comfortable. Male or female.
The answer to why so many uniforms is very simple: it gives each show a separate visual identity, so that the audience can tell at a glance which show they are watching.
Personally, I think that's a good enough reason to suspend a bit of disbelief.
McAvoy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 7:42 pm
Uniform changes in the real world does happen more often than people think. Not the dress uniforms, they usually stay the same. The Navy for a long time played around with the idea of getting rid of the cra ker jack uniform.
But the working uniforms, the camos, etc they are changed more often than you think.
US Navy went from the classic light blue work shirt, dark pants dungarees with white sailor hat to similar color scheme but now with a lighter material. During this time they also went from basically spray painting the rank, name and branch on the uniform to stitched patches and the command ball cap. Then within ten years the US Navy discarded that whole uniform style to the 'aquaflage' that you see now. But from when they were introduced back in 2009 to now they have undergone some improvements.
Summary: the US Navy went through three major uniform changes on one type from 1999-2009. Not including small changes and additions.
You are going to make me go back thirty years. USAF Just leaving olive drab uniform behind for jungle camo BDU's. Sewn on tags to a velcro patch for your rank etc. To desert camo BDU all in four years?
As to the Enterprise crew wearing different uniforms on the ship. Barksdale did not come around and toss new uniforms to everyone at once. They phased out old uniforms. So as you picked up a new uniform you might still have a jungle BDU and the new desert BDU.
McAvoy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 7:42 pm
Uniform changes in the real world does happen more often than people think. Not the dress uniforms, they usually stay the same. The Navy for a long time played around with the idea of getting rid of the cra ker jack uniform.
But the working uniforms, the camos, etc they are changed more often than you think.
US Navy went from the classic light blue work shirt, dark pants dungarees with white sailor hat to similar color scheme but now with a lighter material. During this time they also went from basically spray painting the rank, name and branch on the uniform to stitched patches and the command ball cap. Then within ten years the US Navy discarded that whole uniform style to the 'aquaflage' that you see now. But from when they were introduced back in 2009 to now they have undergone some improvements.
Summary: the US Navy went through three major uniform changes on one type from 1999-2009. Not including small changes and additions.
You are going to make me go back thirty years. USAF Just leaving olive drab uniform behind for jungle camo BDU's. Sewn on tags to a velcro patch for your rank etc. To desert camo BDU all in four years?
As to the Enterprise crew wearing different uniforms on the ship. Barksdale did not come around and toss new uniforms to everyone at once. They phased out old uniforms. So as you picked up a new uniform you might still have a jungle BDU and the new desert BDU.
Yep. Uniforms change alot in real life.
Anyway, Trek changing uniforms is one of least problematic things for me. Actually having two types of uniforms during the TNG and DS9 days wasn't even an issue because of the number of different uniforms Starfleet could have.
Seems like they were transitioning to that uniform. Then dropped it shortly afterwards for the First Contact uniform which stuck. Even then that isn't out of the realm of possibility in real life either. Voyager is an oddball though, as they should have transitioned the moment they regained contact with Starfleet on a regular basis.
McAvoy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 7:42 pm
Uniform changes in the real world does happen more often than people think. Not the dress uniforms, they usually stay the same. The Navy for a long time played around with the idea of getting rid of the cra ker jack uniform.
But the working uniforms, the camos, etc they are changed more often than you think.
US Navy went from the classic light blue work shirt, dark pants dungarees with white sailor hat to similar color scheme but now with a lighter material. During this time they also went from basically spray painting the rank, name and branch on the uniform to stitched patches and the command ball cap. Then within ten years the US Navy discarded that whole uniform style to the 'aquaflage' that you see now. But from when they were introduced back in 2009 to now they have undergone some improvements.
Summary: the US Navy went through three major uniform changes on one type from 1999-2009. Not including small changes and additions.
You are going to make me go back thirty years. USAF Just leaving olive drab uniform behind for jungle camo BDU's. Sewn on tags to a velcro patch for your rank etc. To desert camo BDU all in four years?
As to the Enterprise crew wearing different uniforms on the ship. Barksdale did not come around and toss new uniforms to everyone at once. They phased out old uniforms. So as you picked up a new uniform you might still have a jungle BDU and the new desert BDU.
Yep. Uniforms change alot in real life.
Anyway, Trek changing uniforms is one of least problematic things for me. Actually having two types of uniforms during the TNG and DS9 days wasn't even an issue because of the number of different uniforms Starfleet could have.
Seems like they were transitioning to that uniform. Then dropped it shortly afterwards for the First Contact uniform which stuck. Even then that isn't out of the realm of possibility in real life either. Voyager is an oddball though, as they should have transitioned the moment they regained contact with Starfleet on a regular basis.
Something something energy consumption.
"I know what you’re thinking now. You’re thinking 'Oh my god, that’s treating other people with respect gone mad!'" When I am writing in this font, I am writing in my moderator voice.
Spam-desu
