Trump accuses Comey of perjury following Comey testimony.

[Robovski]

The Democrats at the moment are the "Not Republicans" who are laughably right wing themselves from a European perspective. I will not vote in good conscience for them, and neither will many others. The presidential election was close? Yep, nearly half the populace didn't vote at all finding either no point in voting (hard to argue against given the choices) or that voting for either party's candidate reprehensible. The Democratic party and the Republican party fail American society and that shame is evident in the turnout. There is no real choice to be made and they have it sewn up so why bother is a common sentiment as more and more people remove themselves from politics. But hey, the DNC is well on it's way to another failure at the midterms next year; why mess with that? It's not like they'd actually change anything to make America better if they did; it'd just be more monied politics, "useful" wars and bombing murders while the middle class evaporates and living standards continue to decline.

[Admiral X]

Yeah, our choices pretty much consist of one of two brands of authoritarianism that wants to legislate their morality on the country.

[The Romulan Republic]

Can you actually define what you believe fascism to be? Because so far I have only seen the word bandied around as a slur. It's also very hypocritical to call right wingers fascist in one thread, while complaining in another that people should not equate democratic socialism with communist dicatorship.

First off, I do not characterize people as fascist simply for being Right wing, and I would appreciate it if you refrain from mischaracterizing my arguments in order to score points.

I call people fascists if they behave in a manner reminiscent of fascism.

Its also not at all like equating democratic socialism with communist dictatorship, because to do that is to equate two fundamentally different things (usually for the purpose of discrediting the former). Whereas their are at least clear parallels and overlap between contemporary Alt. Right nonsense and fascism (including xenophobia, authoritarianism, and a desire to restore the country to some imagined past greatness which the undesirables supposedly took away from us).

I'll acknowledge that I use the term fascism somewhat loosely, more the coloquiel/popular definition than an academic or textbook definition, but its basically a convenient short-hand for "extremely authoritarian/nationalist Right-wing politics".

Though perhaps it might be more precise to say that they are ideological descendants of classic fascism.

It has been my experience that this very attitude that pushes people away. The concept that you must vote for something and anyone that disagreed was right wing or in the enemy camp.

Again, I said nothing of the sort.

I don't think all third partiers are actually Right wingers (although some of those pushing Bernie or Bust-type arguments were undoubtably Trumpian or Russian trolls).

But I do think that any sincere progressive who thinks they have a better chance of accomplishing their goals through a third party vote than through the Democratic Party primaries is making a serious tactical and strategic error, and undermining their own cause in consequence.

That and of course, if you don't vote for Hillary you are also the hatred of all women.

And again, I said nothing of the sort. In fact, I voted for Bernie in the primary, and I've hardly been discreet about my primary allegiances.

Do you have the slightest interest in debating my actual points, or are you just going to keep substituting "generic straw liberal" for what I'm actually saying?

People don't like to be bullied or shamed into having to vote the way you want them to, and alone in the voting booth where they're free to make their mark without suffering any prejudice they will vote against such people.

Is giving them my honest opinion on what course of action is most likely to achieve the results that they want (presuming they have actual policy goals beyond spiting the Man) bullying?

Perhaps I do so in a more abrasive way than I need to, but I'm tired of seeing progressives throw away what could be a very strong position out of short-sightedness and spite.

As for the maintaining of the two party system. The late, great Douglas Adams had this to say.

“It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"

Hah Hah.

As much as I like Douglas Adams in general, this is just another regurgitation of the trite, simplistic "both sides are the same" false equivalency. An argument which is not only objectively and demonstrably false, but basically tailored to discourage any actual analysis of the merits of the respective candidates by substituting a simplistic but emotionally satisfying cliche.

Its also an incredibly dangerous fallacy, not only because it discourages critical thinking by voters, but because it basically tells voters that their is no difference between the best and the worst in politics- that they should never expect more from their leaders, and that it doesn't matter if someone like Trump wins (a man who among other things incites violence at rallies, openly targets democratic and legal institutions, and boasts on tape about molesting women), because the Democrats are just as bad.

If people want to understand how Trump won the election, I don't think nearly enough attention is giving to the influence of the False Equivalency Lie, and not just in terms of third party vote splitting. After all, if all the Democrats and Republicans are just the same, just as corrupt, then Trump is no worse than anyone else, right? His behaviour becomes normalized, acceptable. Hell, why not vote for Trump, since at least he doesn't hide the fact that he's a complete scumbag. And who cares if he destroys the country, or the world, since obviously actually reforming the system is impossible?

"Both sides are the same" is an argument which serves no purpose whatsoever other than to encourage voters to become either apathetic, or extremists. I honestly consider it to be the greatest, and most corrosive, political lie of our time- defeatist cynicism masquerading as insight and wisdom, and undermining our democratic institutions in the process.

And its telling that this is almost invariably the first (and often only) fall-back for third partiers. It seems like I almost never hear third partiers actually talk about why I should vote for their party/candidate, beyond some variation on "The major parties are all the same."

And that's part of my point: Just being a third party is not enough to win points with me. If third parties want to be taken seriously, then they actually have to run serious campaigns with serious candidates and serious platforms. Not run politically inexperienced and clumsy conspiracy theorists and demand my vote based on the fact that they're not a Democrat or Republican. For all that people like to accuse the Democrats of just running against the Republicans and not actually giving people anything to vote for, third parties do this all the fucking time. They're just running against two parties instead of one, and still giving us nothing to actually vote for.

Edit: To be fair to Mr. Adams, though, back when he was writing "Both sides are the same" might have been closer to the truth. Maybe.

Then the Right went insane.

[The Romulan Republic]

The Democrats at the moment are the "Not Republicans" who are laughably right wing themselves from a European perspective. I will not vote in good conscience for them, and neither will many others. The presidential election was close? Yep, nearly half the populace didn't vote at all finding either no point in voting (hard to argue against given the choices) or that voting for either party's candidate reprehensible.

Or not being able to vote, for any number of reasons.

The Democratic party and the Republican party fail American society and that shame is evident in the turnout. There is no real choice to be made and they have it sewn up so why bother is a common sentiment as more and more people remove themselves from politics. But hey, the DNC is well on it's way to another failure at the midterms next year; why mess with that? It's not like they'd actually change anything to make America better if they did; it'd just be more monied politics, "useful" wars and bombing murders while the middle class evaporates and living standards continue to decline.

Actually, the last time we had a Democratic President and Congress, we ensured over 20 million more ordinary Americans so they'd have access to health care. The Republicans tried (and thankfully failed) to repeal that legislation with no replacement.

Oh, and under the last Democratic President, which also made huge strides in legal equality for homosexuals (you know, about ten percent of the American population).

Also, Obama didn't try to delegitimize the free press and the courts or UnConstitutionally bar people from the country on the basis of religion or nationality. Among other things. Republicans do all the bad shit the Democratic Party does, plus a whole lot more.

Objectively, they are simply not comparable. The Democratic Party has problems. But "flawed" does not mean "just as bad as the worst." And again, pragmatically, we have a better chance of reforming the Democratic Party through the primary process, than in pinning your hopes on one of the parties that would need a miracle to break five percent of the vote.

Not that I think you care in the slightest about any of that. Again: why does it always seem to be the far Right pushing third partiers and the "both sides are the same" narrative these days? Perhaps because they have a vested interested in dividing and demoralizing the Left?

[Antiboyscout]

Still nothing but off topic posts. Are there any updates on the Comey controversy? No?
Then I declare this an official NOTHING BURGER. I will now move to have this tread killed.
All in favor say AYE.

[The Romulan Republic]

Still nothing but off topic posts. Are there any updates on the Comey controversy? No?
Then I declare this an official NOTHING BURGER. I will now move to have this tread killed.
All in favor say AYE.

1. You are not a mod, so I don't give a damn weather you think a discussion is appropriate.

2. Why do I suspect that your desire to have thread killed has a lot more to do with the ideological content of what I posted than the fact that its off-topic?

A Right-winger who's afraid to permit dissenting opinions? Who'd have thought it?

[Antiboyscout]

A Right-winger who's afraid to permit dissenting opinions? Who'd have thought it?

Oh my! Who's making straw men now?

In your need to be politically active and find that "gotcha" moment for Trump you create thread after thread of these politically biased articles, and when the story amounts to nothing and dies you take the opportunity to rant and rave at the "evil right wing fascists" who tell you how and why the article is biased and will amount to nothing.

Have you noticed that us "evil right-wingers" haven't made thread after thread on all the crazy sh*t people on the Left have been up to? Things like Evergreen State being occupied by bat wielding progressive vigilante mobs. I only brought it up when you made the assertion that the Right is still more politically violent than the Left right now. It's because, there is NO NEED. The only person that really cares is YOU. How many News threads have been created recently? How many are yours? How many of those are you throwing dirt at the right?

Righteous indignation AWAAAAAYYYYY!!!

[Robovski]

AYE. Motion seconded.

[Fixer]

I posted a warning in the thread before to keep the tone respectful and we've still descended into another flame war, avoiding debate and attacks on peoples characters and assumed motivations.

Thread locked. Antiboyscout and Romulan Republic, consider this an official warning.