For Frell's Sake

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Wild_Kraken
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Re: For Frell's Sake

Post by Wild_Kraken »

GandALF wrote:Liberal democracy is not about utopia. Its about preventing tyranny.
Then it is an utter and complete failure under capitalism. Liberal democracy has merely outsourced the tyranny of the state to the tyranny of the corporation. As can be seen in the numerous examples I've already provided in this thread. If the government continued to sell cancer causing products to its citizens for decades after realizing that fact, we would rightly call this a tyranny, unacceptable act. Yet when corporations do this, are they punished? Not really. They're just slapped with some minor regulations and fines. If a government dictated when you had to wake up or when you had to go to bed, what you could wear, and what you can say in public, we'd rightly view this as a tyranny. And yet these are just some of the restrictions corporations can place on the lives of their employees. The standard retort is "if you don't like it don't work for those corporations," yet this merely collapses to "accept these restrictions on your person or starve" which is not a free choice. Any government that gave this choice to its citizens so bluntly we would rightly call a tyranny.

Why is it that you're so on guard against the tyranny of government, yet so willing to let tyranny invade every other aspect of a person's life?
GandALF wrote:For example where do the religious people belong in communism? They can't. The people who believe materialism won't solve all your problems won't believe it to be utopia. So either you'd have admit that it isn't the best of all possible worlds for everyone or suppress them which would be tyranny.
I could talk about how religious belief is based on a sort of wish fulfillment born out of living under terrible material conditions, and how in a communist society it too would slowly wither away as people no longer need it to comfort them, but it's sort of moot given your argumentation. On the one hand you say that capitalist liberal democracy isn't about being a utopia, and then you argue that communism won't be a utopia. What if I agree with you here and say that yes, communism won't be a utopia. Well, then we're just comparing two non-utopias. And in that case, I think I've made it abundantly clear that communism >>>>>> capitalism. By a long shot.
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Steve
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Re: For Frell's Sake

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Your idea of a communist state would be a "communist democracy" that would recognize all civil and political rights, right? I've considered whether or not such a thing could exist myself. At that point, I think, the question is if a communist society can survive with dissent. As in, how do you handle people who aren't happy with settling for what they need from the system but want to gain more?

Also, are there opportunities for them to fill different niches in society? To better their situation? Would they be allowed to own personal property like houses, transportation? (I mean, I can imagine small private things like photos or computers or televisions can be owned as personal property).

We can start a new thread for this discussion if you please, because I'm curious as to what you envision.
"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

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Wild_Kraken
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Re: For Frell's Sake

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A good basic primer on socialism, what it is, and why it is necessary to replace capitalism with it, is The ABCs of Socialism by Jacobin Magazine (who are amazing, I highly recommend them). It's a short, easy read that does well to explain key concepts. For the purposes of some of the topic brought up in this thread, I shall quote it at length, as it is written better than I ever could.

1. Capitalist "liberal democracy":
Private control over major investment decisions creates a constant pressure on public authorities to enact rules favorable to the interests of capitalists. The threat of disinvestment and capital mobility is always in the background of public policy discussions, and thus politicians, whatever their ideological orientation, are forced to worry about sustaining a “good business climate.” Democratic values are hollow so long as one class of citizens takes priority over all others.
Finally, wealthy people have greater access than others to political power. This is the case in all capitalist democracies, although wealth-based inequality of political power is much greater in some countries than in others. The specific mechanisms for this greater access are quite varied: contributions to political campaigns; financing lobbying efforts; elite social networks of various sorts; and outright bribes and other forms of corruption. In the United States it is not only wealthy individuals, but also capitalist corporations, that face no meaningful restriction on their ability to deploy private resources for political purposes. This differential access to political power voids the most basic principle of democracy.
2. Human nature:
For at least two reasons, socialists are committed to the view that all humans share some important interests. The first is a moral one. Socialists’ indictment of how today’s societies fail to provide necessities like food and shelter in a world of plenty, or stunt the development of people locked into thankless, grueling, low-paying jobs, rests on a core belief (stated or not) about the impulses and interests that animate people everywhere. Our outrage that individuals are denied the right to live free and full lives is anchored in the idea that people are inherently creative and curious, and that capitalism too often stifles these qualities. Simply put, we strive for a freer and more fulfilling world because everyone, everywhere, cares about their freedom and fulfillment.
But this is not the only reason why socialists are interested in humanity’s universal drives. Having a conception of human nature also helps us make sense of the world around us. And by helping us to interpret the world, it aids our efforts to change it, as well. Marx famously said that “the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.” Resistance to exploitation and oppression is a constant throughout history — it is as much a part of human nature as competitiveness, or greed. The world around us is filled with instances of people defending their lives and dignity. And while social structures may shape and constrain individual agency, there are no structures that steamroll people’s rights and freedoms without inviting resistance.
3. Socialist dictatorships and the USSR:
Yet many socialists were consistent opponents of authoritarianism of both left and right varieties. Marx himself understood that only by the power of their democratic numbers could workers create a socialist society. To that end, The Communist Manifesto ends with a clarion call for workers to win the battle for democracy against aristocratic and reactionary forces.
Revolutionaries such as Rosa Luxemburg and Victor Serge criticized early Soviet rule for banning opposition parties, eliminating experiments in workplace democracy, and failing to embrace political pluralism and civil liberties. If the state owns the means of production, the question remains: how democratic is the state? As Luxemburg wrote in her 1918 pamphlet on the Russian Revolution:
Rosa Luxemburg wrote:Without general elections, without freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, without the free battle of opinions, life in every public institution withers away, becomes a caricature of itself, and bureaucracy rises as the only deciding factor.
Luxemburg understood that the 1871 Paris Commune, the brief experiment in radical democracy that Marx and Engels referred to as a true working-class government, had multiple political parties in its municipal council, only one of which was affiliated with Marx’s International Workingmen’s Association. True to these values, socialists, dissident communists, and independent trade unionists led the democratic rebellions against Communist rule in East Germany in 1953, Hungary in 1956, and Poland in 1956, 1968, and 1980. Democratic socialists also led the brief, but extraordinary experiment of “socialism with a human face” under the Dubček government in Czechoslovakia in 1968. All these rebellions were crushed by Soviet tanks.
But what of the many governments in the developing world that still call themselves socialist, particularly one-party states? In many ways, one-party Communist states shared more in common with past authoritarian capitalist “developmentalist” states — such as late nineteenth-century Prussia and Japan, and postwar South Korea and Taiwan— than with the vision of democratic socialism. These governments prioritized state-led industrialization over democratic rights, particularly those of an independent labor movement.
4. Socialism and the environment:
Capitalism began by enclosing public and common resources for private benefit and dispossessing their previous users. Collective ownership of the means of production should include common ownership of the land, oceans, and atmosphere. That would mean not only sharing in the resources that those spaces generate, but deciding together how they should be used. A socialist society could use scientific knowledge about ecological capacity to manage and regulate use of those spaces rather than ceding to industry whims: we’d listen to the 98 percent of scientists who say that anthropogenic climate change is happening, for example, rather than the lies of fossil-fuel lobbyists.
Under socialism, we would make decisions about resource use democratically, with regard to human needs and values rather than maximizing profit. An ecologically sustainable socialism isn’t about preserving an idealized concept of pristine, untouched nature. It’s about choosing the world we make and live in, and about recognizing that we share that world with species other than humans. A world that’s livable is a world where everyone can have a good life instead of just scrambling to make a living.
5. Socialism and the individual.
Socialism has often been portrayed in science fiction in these types of gray dystopian terms, which reflect the ambivalence that many artists have toward capitalism. Artists are often repulsed by the anti-human values and commercialized culture of their society, but they are also aware that they have a unique status within it that allows them to express their creative individuality — as long as it sells. They fear that socialism would strip them of that status and reduce them to the level of mere workers, because they are unable to imagine a world that values and encourages the artistic expression of all of its members.
The sacrifice of individuals in the name of societal progress is said to be one of the horrors of socialism, a world run by faceless bureaucrats supposedly acting for the common good. But there are plenty of invisible and unelected decision-makers under capitalism, from health insurance officials who don’t know us but can determine whether our surgery is “necessary” to billionaire-funded foundations that declare schools they have never visited to be “failures.”
There was an explosion of art and culture. Cutting-edge painters and sculptors decorated the public squares of Russian cities with their futurist art. For the record, Lenin hated the futurists, but this didn’t stop the government from funding their journal, Art of the Commune. Ballets and theaters were opened up to mass audiences. Cultural groups and workers’ committees came together to bring art and artistic training into factories. The filmmaker Sergei Eisenstein gained world renown for the groundbreaking technique of his movies depicting the Russian Revolution.
Loving the public but not people is also a feature of elitist socialists, whose faith rests more on five-year development plans, utopian blueprints, or winning future elections than on the wonders that hundreds of millions can achieve when they are inspired and liberated. That is why their visions for socialism are so lifeless and unimaginative. By contrast, Marx, who is often presented as an isolated intellectual, was a rowdy, argumentative, funny, passionate person who once declared that his favorite saying was the maxim:
Karl Marx wrote:“I am a human being, I consider nothing that is human alien to me.”
I find it hard to see how a world run by the majority of human beings, with all of our gloriously and infuriatingly different talents, personalities, madnesses, and passions, could possibly be boring
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GandALF
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Re: For Frell's Sake

Post by GandALF »

Wild_Kraken wrote: Then it is an utter and complete failure under capitalism. Liberal democracy has merely outsourced the tyranny of the state to the tyranny of the corporation.
The corporate secret police arrested you for posting this right?
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Wild_Kraken
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Re: For Frell's Sake

Post by Wild_Kraken »

GandALF wrote:
Wild_Kraken wrote: Then it is an utter and complete failure under capitalism. Liberal democracy has merely outsourced the tyranny of the state to the tyranny of the corporation.
The corporate secret police arrested you for posting this right?
You mean the DINA? Or the SAVAK? Or the collusion of private corporations such as Apple and Google in the government's overreaching spying programs? Oh wait, you were trying to make a joke and didn't realize that capital-backed secret police are a historical reality. Also there's Academi (formerly Xi, formerly Blackwater) which is a corporate military so, not too far off now, eh?

This is where the discourse is at. The opponents of socialism reduced to making snarky one liners which, funnily enough, are themselves easy to debunk.
Antiboyscout
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Re: For Frell's Sake

Post by Antiboyscout »

Wild_Kraken wrote:
GandALF wrote:
Wild_Kraken wrote: Then it is an utter and complete failure under capitalism. Liberal democracy has merely outsourced the tyranny of the state to the tyranny of the corporation.
The corporate secret police arrested you for posting this right?
You mean the DINA? Or the SAVAK? Or the collusion of private corporations such as Apple and Google in the government's overreaching spying programs? Oh wait, you were trying to make a joke and didn't realize that capital-backed secret police are a historical reality. Also there's Academi (formerly Xi, formerly Blackwater) which is a corporate military so, not too far off now, eh?

This is where the discourse is at. The opponents of socialism reduced to making snarky one liners which, funnily enough, are themselves easy to debunk.

Don't worry, they're only spying on Nazis, Chinese dissidents, and Islamic Blasphemers. Ironically they are spying because it is the "moral" thing to do at the moment. Apple used to be all for privicy for it's user base. Now it sacrifices its users security at the whims of gov do to moral outrage.
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