Robert Mugabe Dies Aged 95

[clearspira]

To be fair Africa would currently have need for some anti-Colonialists leaders considering what China (as in People's Republic of China and CCP) is doing there. They "One Road Initiative" is pretty much modern form of Colonialism.

Modern form of colonialism my ass. Scare mongering that the big bad Chinese are coming, nothing more. Maybe if the West spend some of its vast wealth on third world infrastructure they wouldn't have turned to the Chinese in the first place.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

They "One Road Initiative" is pretty much modern form of Colonialism.

How so?

[Mecha82]

By leaving those African countries in debt and allowing China access to resources in those African countries as payment. Which is why that is so dangerous and it also allows China to get more influence there. Anything that hinders increase of China's influence is good thing in my book. Which is why I give credit were credit is due to Trump for fighting China with trade war. I might not like Trump and lot of things he is doing but that is something good that he is doing.

[Darth Wedgius]

Another example of an effective revolutionary becoming the last person you want in the new government. Even then, politically, he didn't start off terrible, but he really seemed to resist losing power after a while, and that lead to some questionable behavior (such as torturing political opponents and using the nation's farms the as political bargaining chips). Not wholly hero or horror, Mugabe helped the black population of Zimbabwe achieve better economic parity, but at the cost of beggaring the country.

The hyperinflation is best described as astronomical - after three currency re-evaluations the fourth gen Zimbabwe dollar was worth 10^25th what the first gen was. It's about 6x10^12th inches from earth to the moon. The problems of having any meaningful economy when what a house costs today could be what a loaf of bread costs a few months later should be pretty obvious. They eventually abandoned their own currency in favor of using several others nations'.

I think Zimbabwe is a lot better off without him in power. They're trying their hand at their own currency again, and maybe wiser heads than Mugabe's will be able to manage it. It seems to be working much better so far.

They've even invited some of the white farmers back; I don't think that's going to solve the farm problem (it's been 37 years, I think long enough for the new people to learn how to farm, and AFAIK there's nothing magical about the skin color of the farmer), but I think it does indicate a more utilitarian turn of mind, wanting to improve the country as a whole more than score political points, and that's heartening.

[clearspira]

By leaving those African countries in debt and allowing China access to resources in those African countries as payment. Which is why that is so dangerous and it also allows China to get more influence there. Anything that hinders increase of China's influence is good thing in my book. Which is why I give credit were credit is due to Trump for fighting China with trade war. I might not like Trump and lot of things he is doing but that is something good that he is doing.

And Chinese influence is bad why?

[Admiral X]

Communism and the spread thereof for people like myself, but as it applies to the regressive left, it's interesting mainly as an example of hypocrisy. After all, they go on and on about past European colonialism/imperialism from over a century ago, but when it comes to the Chinese doing much the same thing in Africa as we speak, they are either silent, or try to excuse it.

[Mecha82]

To be honest Chinese aren't really communistic anymore. Sure they ruling party might call itself CCP but they have went to capitalistic direction with even having they own middle class and rich. Trade is important to modern China making trade war that Trump is having with them viable option. Of course because of trade important people that benefit from that have been silent from China's human rights violations for some time. And things don't look good for Hong Kong and it's people considering everything going on in there and Carrie Lam seeming to answer to CCP and not to people of Hong Kong.

[Admiral X]

So if all the commies are convinced that China isn't really commie anymore, why do they persist in giving China a pass? :rolleyes: Even if I went along with the argument that China IsN't ReAl CoMmUnIsM anymore, they are still authoritarian. So why is what China is doing in Africa right now of no interest, even if it's the same or very similar to the past evils constantly brought up at every opportunity?

[PerrySimm]

Authoritarianism is a toxin that can take hold anywhere, even the Anglosphere - something that Rhodesia demonstrated even before Mugabe showed up on the scene.

As far as geopolitics goes, well rah rah for whatever gets more roads, solar panels, and fibre optics into Africa. International competition can be "good" if it results in America stepping up to the plate to build its own roads in Africa. Competition can be "bad" if it results in America sabotaging Chinese projects or blocking trade out of spite.

[Jonathan101]

The reason the Western Left isn't as critical of China as it is America or Europe is not because they think China is Communist; it's because Western Leftists are typically Internationalist and anti-racist, and generally taught to watch out for racism in themselves and in their own countries.

Which has the unfortunate side-effect of (or, perhaps, is an unfortunate consequence of) racial / ethnic / national self-centredness. Nationalism and racism needs to be talked about "in America" or "in Europe"; nationalism and racism elsewhere in the world is a tricky subject that they don't like to talk about since that invites racist temptations in themselves.

How China treats Africa, or how China treats ethnic minorities in it's own borders, is (probably) very, very bad, but focusing on "bad stuff" abroad distracts from "bad stuff" at home, might tempt one to think that other cultures are worse than ones' own, and risks getting involved and talking about a subject that doesn't directly concern you and that you don't have any direct experience with so you might end up getting totally lost. Doesn't help at all that it veers close to old evils like "Yellow Peril" or Donald Trumps' own anti-China rhetoric, and they don't want to be associated with either.

Plus, the wealthier Western Liberals and Leftists know that closer ties with China mean more economic and business opportunities, and criticising China too much risks upsetting the Chinese government who controls those opportunities, and in particular Hollywood needs China as a market (as well as feeling guilty about historic poor representation of Chinese people in their own movies), exacerbating the problem.

Since Western Leftists generally advocate for closer ties towards nations with th long-term goal of breaking down national barriers, they see things like closer ties with China and the continuation of the EU as inherently "Good Things", and while they aren't blind to the problems and issues in China or elsewhere, they think they need to downplay or ignore them in the short-term in order to bring that goal closer in the long-term, seeing ultranationalistic evils in their own world as a bigger problem.

Basically they practice "trickle down culture", thinking that America etc is the biggest, most influential nation on the planet and therefore if they purify it of racism, sexism et al and make it more like the kind of society they want it to be, then their culture will "trickle down" into other, less wealthy / less developed countries and cultures will become more left-wing through that indirect influence, without having to get overtly involved themselves.