Remember how the Mainstream Media said they won't be coming for Jefferson and Washington Next?

[Dragon Ball Fan]

there must have been someone like Sindler in the Confederacy even if I can't name them. and since the confederacy made it illegal for slave owners to release their slaves, there could possibly have been owners, say, though inheritance, were stuck being slave owners even if they didn't want to be.

Then they absolutely could have taken their slaves north, and released them in the north, where they could be emancipated. Schindler spent his entire fortune, risked execution by the Nazis multiple times, was investigated by the motherfucking SS, and got prisoners released from Auschwitz under false pretenses. Something they'd have killed him for instantly had they had the slightest idea. He falsified records so overwhelmingly that his so-called arms factory produced a single load of ammunition in all the time it was open (despite records stating it was shipping it out on the regular). It was literally a full-time smuggling operation for Jewish prisoners. Schindler personally helped nurse Jewish people on a death train back to health, and had Jewish funerals for the hundreds of dead on the train, rather than having the Nazis bury them in a mass grave (that's what they normally did). Secretly, of course, because again, execution the instant they find out.

I think this "reluctant slave owner" could take a two week trip. I feel that's a baseline minimum standard to be a decent person, yes. If instead he signed up to go shoot at American soldiers to preserve the right to subjugate and enslave black people, and ensure that no black person would ever be thought of as a white man's equal, well... this kinda answers itself, doesn't it?

maybe there were slave owners who did go north and others might have been afraid they and their slaves would be caught.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I'm just saying what I've read and not from sources pandering to confederate nostalgia.

Yes, the lost cause shit had a way of infiltrating many sources. Back before the internet, you really were limited to what books people put out, and oh boy they put out books. That lead to it creeping in to other stuff. Ripping it all out by the roots has been annoying.

But 32% of the white population being slaveowners isn't exactly this idea that "only a few rich families owned slaves", is it? It's more like "a third of the population."

Toss in that many non-slaveowning white people worked for slaveowners, had customers who were slaveowners, purchased products made by slaves, and wow, it starts to look like most of the economy was directly interacting with and benefiting from slavery. That's not quite the picture that the lost cause narrative paints, is it?

okay but some of them must have not cared or were against the Confederate cause. I just can't believe they were Always Chaotic Evil.

“There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.” ― Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

so, all the German solders and civilians in WW2 were also guilty of genocide?

Did you even read the quote?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I'm just saying what I've read and not from sources pandering to confederate nostalgia.

Yes, the lost cause shit had a way of infiltrating many sources. Back before the internet, you really were limited to what books people put out, and oh boy they put out books. That lead to it creeping in to other stuff. Ripping it all out by the roots has been annoying.

But 32% of the white population being slaveowners isn't exactly this idea that "only a few rich families owned slaves", is it? It's more like "a third of the population."

Toss in that many non-slaveowning white people worked for slaveowners, had customers who were slaveowners, purchased products made by slaves, and wow, it starts to look like most of the economy was directly interacting with and benefiting from slavery. That's not quite the picture that the lost cause narrative paints, is it?

okay but some of them must have not cared or were against the Confederate cause. I just can't believe they were Always Chaotic Evil.

“There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.” ― Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

so, all the German solders and civilians in WW2 were also guilty of genocide?

It's kind of a misleading quote.

[TGLS]

I'm just saying what I've read and not from sources pandering to confederate nostalgia.

Yes, the lost cause shit had a way of infiltrating many sources. Back before the internet, you really were limited to what books people put out, and oh boy they put out books. That lead to it creeping in to other stuff. Ripping it all out by the roots has been annoying.

But 32% of the white population being slaveowners isn't exactly this idea that "only a few rich families owned slaves", is it? It's more like "a third of the population."

Toss in that many non-slaveowning white people worked for slaveowners, had customers who were slaveowners, purchased products made by slaves, and wow, it starts to look like most of the economy was directly interacting with and benefiting from slavery. That's not quite the picture that the lost cause narrative paints, is it?

okay but some of them must have not cared or were against the Confederate cause. I just can't believe they were Always Chaotic Evil.

“There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.” ― Terry Pratchett, Small Gods

so, all the German solders and civilians in WW2 were also guilty of genocide?

It's kind of a misleading quote.

Here's a better one:
"The trouble with Eichmann was precisely that so many were like him, and that the many were neither perverted nor sadistic, that they were, and still are, terribly and terrifyingly normal. From the viewpoint of our legal institutions and of our moral standards of judgment, this normality was much more terrifying than all the atrocities put together, for it implied — as had been said at Nuremberg over and over again by the defendants and their counsels — that this new type of criminal, who is in actual fact hostis generis humani, commits his crimes under circumstances that make it well-nigh impossible for him to know or to feel that he is doing wrong."

[Dragon Ball Fan]

and wile the things those people as a whole did were still wrong, from the way I see it, since slavery was "normal" then, you have to look at individual slave owners and ask "were these people bad even by that standard?"

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

and wile the things those people as a whole did were still wrong, from the way I see it, since slavery was "normal" then, you have to look at individual slave owners and ask "were these people bad even by that standard?"

Look at this though: If you stabbed somebody in the chest because other people were doing it to other people and it was considered normal, how do you expect justification in the eyes of the person you did it to?

[Dragon Ball Fan]

and wile the things those people as a whole did were still wrong, from the way I see it, since slavery was "normal" then, you have to look at individual slave owners and ask "were these people bad even by that standard?"

Look at this though: If you stabbed somebody in the chest because other people were doing it to other people and it was considered normal, how do you expect justification in the eyes of the person you did it to?

I get where you are coming from and I briefly thought you beat my argument but it's not a one to one comparison because perhaps some slave owners treated their slaves so well, it was slavery only in name more or less. stabbing someone always has the same result.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

and wile the things those people as a whole did were still wrong, from the way I see it, since slavery was "normal" then, you have to look at individual slave owners and ask "were these people bad even by that standard?"

Look at this though: If you stabbed somebody in the chest because other people were doing it to other people and it was considered normal, how do you expect justification in the eyes of the person you did it to?

I get where you are coming from and I briefly thought you beat my argument but it's not a one to one comparison because perhaps some slave owners treated their slaves so well, it was slavery only in name more or less. stabbing someone always has the same result.

It's still tied to the institution that itself is appalling.

Also if your parents never let you leave the house for your whole life you would be entitled to some political steam. I mean, they love you and just want to help you, so how bad could it be?

[phantom000]

How about Voltaire?



Or Deathwalker from Babylon 5 "You take blind comfort in the belief that we are monsters; that you could never do what we did." We like to think of people like Hitler, Stalin, Temur and Hussein as monsters, because it is not as scary to admit what they really were which was human beings.

It can be disturbing to think you could meet them on the street and not think of them as anymore than an average joe just trying to get through the day like the rest of us, or that in the end you yourself are maybe one small step removed from them. That all it would take is one good push and you would be in the same place, doing exactly the same thing.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

but my idea is how it works, like Columbus, he wasn't normal for his time, even his contemporaries, who were probably still colonialists, thought he was a monster.