The Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Draco Dracul]

I mean that would disqualify the US from being a democracy or a republic because we have a single party, the neoliberal big business party. That it arranges it's into wings with distinct names does not changes that they have explicitly had the same goals for the last 30 years.

I think comparisons like this are the reason why people don't ever have decent discussions of politics. Comparing the shared platforms of a democracy with, "It is actually a single oligarchy of an authoritarian government" just makes the entire discussion worthless.

Yes but that's more a matter of your opinion than anything.

I mean it might be different factions of the rich with their own agendas, but objectively the US is an authoritarian government that does not answer to the people. The popularity of legislation has no correlation with whether or not it is implemented.


https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/def ... cs.doc.pdf

While correlation does not imply causation, lack of correlation does imply lack of causation.

The Nazis wanted to exterminate other ethnic and cultural groups, while the Soviets wanted to homogenize and absorb them. The intended end results are pretty much identical.

I mean even taking that to be true, the end results are very different as the former involve murdering 99% of the world and the later does not. It's also not true, like the entire reason that USSR was organized the way it was is that Lenin and most of the other Bolsheviks believed ethnic groups deserved some degree of self rule. In fact the USSR explicitly allowed schools to teach primarily in the language of their own nationality.

I don't even like the USSR because after it's take over by Stalin and his clique it became counter revolutionary, both gutting international Communist parties ability to respond to local conditions rather than the wants of the USSR and dissuading a communist uprising in western Europe after WWII.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

What is your basis for assuming that most people were being ironically racist, Frustration?

That isn't my contention. I think people are outright trying to provoke for provocation's sake, not being ironic.

It's not so much an assertion about what is said than about why I think it's being said.

Why do you think that, then? What inclines you towards that interpretation rather than the interpretation that they are saying exactly what they mean, plain and simple?

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

What I don't understand are the people who are praising Putin. Arguing that the West hasn't handled Russia well, sure. Arguing that Putin's actions (if not his explicit arguments) have a certain amount of valid realpolitik in them? Perfectly reasonable. Claiming that this whole mess is a good idea that Putin's in the right? I don't... I don't comprehend that at all, even superficially. This looks to me like an epic disaster in the process of occurring.

It's simple. Read my signature.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

In the immortal words of Q, "Oh please."

Oh please, yourself. There are few practical differences between the Soviet and Nazi autocracies, and the ones that exist mostly center around the methods used. The Nazis wanted to exterminate other ethnic and cultural groups, while the Soviets wanted to homogenize and absorb them. The intended end results are pretty much identical.

Psychologically speaking, the preference for strong authoritarian rule exists across the Left and Right.

I took that to mean Left, Right, and the subtle gradiations between. If that's what you mean, then please clarify.

If that is what you mean, I don't exactly see a lot of Nazi-like behavior from the Labour Party or any Leftist I personally know, and I've met a lot from Anarchist to Communist. (Democrats are a center right party so they don't count as leftists, but I haven't seen a single Nazi among them.)

If you're pushing the horseshoe theory, then just say so. If you're including all the in betweens, then explain how they are all interchangeably Nazi-like.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

In the immortal words of Q, "Oh please."

Oh please, yourself. There are few practical differences between the Soviet and Nazi autocracies, and the ones that exist mostly center around the methods used. The Nazis wanted to exterminate other ethnic and cultural groups, while the Soviets wanted to homogenize and absorb them. The intended end results are pretty much identical.

Psychologically speaking, the preference for strong authoritarian rule exists across the Left and Right.

It's not like the coalition between the axis powers wasn't overt. They were each about expanding empires. That kind of territorial pursuit is comparatively unheard of today except for tight grip claims on nationally ambiguous international state lines.

I think though in time you'll hear from extreme rights groups in America being pro-Ukraine on the matter in spite of liking Putin for more contemporary political circumstances.

In September 1939, the Soviet Union was Nazi Germany's ally in dismembering Poland. They also made territorial demands on Finland and started a nearly disastrous and bloody war to achieve them before Hitler's unexpected but inevitable betrayal.

Totalitarian ideologues are vicious, whether nationalist or internationalist.

This is overall consistent with my point.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

In the immortal words of Q, "Oh please."

Oh please, yourself. There are few practical differences between the Soviet and Nazi autocracies, and the ones that exist mostly center around the methods used. The Nazis wanted to exterminate other ethnic and cultural groups, while the Soviets wanted to homogenize and absorb them. The intended end results are pretty much identical.

Psychologically speaking, the preference for strong authoritarian rule exists across the Left and Right.

If you're pushing the horseshoe theory, then just say so. If you're including all the in betweens, then explain how they are all interchangeably Nazi-like.

This sounds about right.

I again have to bring up contemporary radical rightwing uprising across western democracy, inclusive of the US, EU, and the Commonwealth nations. Everybody will have their thoughts on Putin and it will probably steer towards him not being as bad as the Soviet Union, and not much a threat to the US. It's just now turning into an ugly situation where he is resembling pre cold war expansionist agendas.

[CharlesPhipps]

I mean it might be different factions of the rich with their own agendas, but objectively the US is an authoritarian government that does not answer to the people. The popularity of legislation has no correlation with whether or not it is implemented.

One of the problems with Left leaning intellectualisa, such as myself, is we tend to assume the people want what we want and what is "smart" and that there is some sort of sinister cabal like the Republicans or conservative democrats who are blocking it.

When, in fact, moderate and anti-progressive voters exist in huge numbers.

Mind you, "everyone is all the same" is a policy I hate because it encourages apathy and lack of reform.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The US is a union of states more than a representative of the public. The supreme court does not often get involved in personal cases, and legislation virtually never makes laws specific to individuals. The president only goes after a person on an individual level if they are a threat to the state, eg: Bin Laden. The legislative body does have a populous oriented body, and it sits opposite the state union oriented body.

Chuck went over this in his Voyager Death Penalty episode, but the people are most closely represented by each individual US state.

[Draco Dracul]

I mean it might be different factions of the rich with their own agendas, but objectively the US is an authoritarian government that does not answer to the people. The popularity of legislation has no correlation with whether or not it is implemented.

One of the problems with Left leaning intellectualisa, such as myself, is we tend to assume the people want what we want and what is "smart" and that there is some sort of sinister cabal like the Republicans or conservative democrats who are blocking it.

When, in fact, moderate and anti-progressive voters exist in huge numbers.

Mind you, "everyone is all the same" is a policy I hate because it encourages apathy and lack of reform.

I don't think it's a sinister cabal, I think it's class interest. Because the barriers of entry to political office are fairly high and require connections, it tends to be the rich who then make laws that favor the rich.

Additionally Congressional deadlock makes it much easier to for many people that only have a few conservative bugbear to vote Republican despite on aggregate not really liking Republican policy because policy doesn't get passed. And on the other side there is no reason to vote for Democrats who promise what they want because the promises are rarely delivered.

A good example of this is not only do 2/3 of Americans want pot legalized, but a majority of Republicans want it legalized, but despite this neither party is working on what should be a slam dunk despite Biden explicitly having the decriminalization of marijuana as part of his platform. Another example would be the 15 dollar minimum wage which won in Florida via referendum even as Biden lost the state despite the Republicans being against it and the Democrats nominally being for it.

[Draco Dracul]

Chuck went over this in his Voyager Death Penalty episode, but the people are most closely represented by each individual US state.

That's really not true. Not only can states be thoroughly Gerrymandered to the point that in Michigan the Republicans got 60% of state senate seats despite the democrats got a majority of the votes in the State Senate races, but many states specifically don't pay a living wage to state representatives and senators as to make it so only the rich can afford to be one.

You also have massive voter suppression efforts in every single red state in the country because they know they do not represent the people of thier state.

And those are arguments I'm making with the assumption that representative democracy is actually functional and not a giant scam to keep the people at each others throats while the oligrlarchs rob us blind.