Sfdebris.net

TGLS wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 10:45 pm

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 9:07 pm Once again, I have to ask the question that nobody answered. Why are Democrats supporting this? What is their motive? What do they get out of it? I already know why the Republicans are doing it, but the Democrats I don't understand.

Well lots of Americans are Pro-Israel

re: Favorability Toward Palestinian Authority, by Party ID

I wonder what it was that made Republicans support Palestinians specifically in the middle of lockdown.

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 12:47 amSo you mean they're trying to follow in the vein of Ukraine by terms of support from the global community?

Netanyahu's position in Israel is basically a very tenuous one and he was elected essentially on a very Far Right series of positions and authoritarianism (that he's faced numerous attempts to remove him from office over). He's supported a large amount of illegal settlements and opposed the peace processs whenever possible.

Hamas in power makes his position look a lot more reasonable.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:15 pm They absolutely need to go and if they aren't removed, it's solely because Israel wants them still in power.

The trouble here is Hamas is overwhelmingly an Israeli creation coming and going. They systematically suppressed any other civil authority or political entity, leaving what are essentially warlords. Then they spent 17 years brutally controlling the lives of the people living there, a population that is now fully half under age 20.

Let’s repeat that. Half of the people in Gaza are so young they don’t REMEMBER a time before apartheid. From this perspective, it’s RATIONAL to adopt the view that all Israelis are equally guilty and there are no invalid targets. And because it’s a viewpoint born of observable facts, it cannot be dissuaded with half measures.

So ending Hamas can only happen one of two ways.
1) the complete depopulation of Palestinians, an outcome Netanyahu has been manufacturing consent for for 25 years.
2) a radical shift in Israeli policy, featuring unilateral withdrawal on their part as the opening gestures of the decades-long process of rebuilding trust and letting non-Hamas viewpoints develop leadership again.

That’s it. And it will be a long process, Hamas will certainly try to provoke response to maintain their own power, but until Israel can simply absorb those attacks and use them as springboards to legitimize non-violent movements they will never have peace.

CmdrKing wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 11:50 am 2) a radical shift in Israeli policy, featuring unilateral withdrawal on their part as the opening gestures of the decades-long process of rebuilding trust and letting non-Hamas viewpoints develop leadership again.

I don't see how unilaterally withdrawing does anything to remove Hamas from leadership. The thing about dictators is they don't just go away when the enemy they rallied everyone against calls it quits.

TGLS wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 3:12 pm

CmdrKing wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 11:50 am 2) a radical shift in Israeli policy, featuring unilateral withdrawal on their part as the opening gestures of the decades-long process of rebuilding trust and letting non-Hamas viewpoints develop leadership again.

I don't see how unilaterally withdrawing does anything to remove Hamas from leadership. The thing about dictators is they don't just go away when the enemy they rallied everyone against calls it quits.

I think her point was that there's no silver bullet to the situation, and that doing that is a preliminary step towards developing lasting negotiations at large. What happens after isn't really on the table as of yet, but it's believed at this point that any administered plan set forth by democratically aligned state bodies is not going to bring a determined resolution at the outset.

Basically that. So long as it’s profitable to Israel and Arab nations for Hamas to exist, trying to “eradicate” them militarily is a doomed effort, because the leaders will have the resources and contacts to simply not be where military action is taking place. So the next best path to peace is starving them of fresh foot soldiers, and that has to begin with demonstrating that you can be opposed and negotiated with without violence. And Israel has spent decades doing the precise opposite of that, so it will similarly take many long years and many concessions that they previously have refused to rebuild that trust.

Some thoughts on the toll of these war crimes and ethnic cleansing attempts:
https://twitter.com/SpillerOfTea/status ... 3637250245

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:36 pm Some thoughts on the toll of these war crimes and ethnic cleansing attempts:
https://twitter.com/SpillerOfTea/status ... 3637250245

Go on?

No that was just me, sharing somebody else's thoughts.

So apparently Israel was really beneficial to the west with Soviet intelligence gathering, which would explain how rooted the relationship with the US is. Since around the days of Goldeneye though I’m not sure yet how things have played out.