shaking my head---wil wheaton

[Madner Kami]

Madner Kami, you are being needlessly cruel.

You don't really explain how exactly I am cruel there, so please elaborate.

First, you claim that most believers are insincere in their beliefs, just going out of social pressure, without presenting any evidence for the case.

I don't have to. As I said, it is personal experience and everybody is free to have a good look around oneself and, given you are a "believer" as well, have a good look at yourself and your actions. When, for example, was the last time you ate pork? Forbidden by god. Did you shave recently? Did you know that god doesn't want you to do that? Have you ever read a horoscope? God considers you filthy and god demands that you stone the person who wrote that horoscope to death. Have you done so recently? No? Why? Deus Vult! Or those famed choirs so often depicted as being standard in american churches, you know, the sister act ones with those gorgous black lady voices? God does not like that, as women are forbidden to speak in church.

Can you see why I think what I think? People say they believe XYZ but are happily ignoring everything left and right, just because it inconviniences them or robs them of pleasure. I don't doubt that many "believers" do believe in something supernatural, but I doubt that they believe what they pretend to believe in. They attend church not because they feel attached to the rules given to them by the magic sky-daddy, but because it gives them a sense of belonging and interconnection, usually being subscribed to a given belief by their parents and that's what I meant by peer-pressure. They certainly belief in something and they may feel they are sincere in what they say, but the thing is, they just aren't sincere, which makes the gesture, even if meant in earnest, hypocritical and insincere, hollow, dishonest.

Second, there are more than two options here. Some people believe that bad things make sense on a cosmic scale that we mortals cannot comprehend, or that Yaweh refrains from intervening in certain areas because of a compact with mankind about free will, or various other "mental gymnastics". Just because YOU, personally, cannot reconcile an all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing deity with these tragedies, that doesn't mean other people can't.

You do realize, that you have just proven my point about true believers, right? And I find it funny that you name the "free will" that god doesn't want to interfere with, because this is one of the easiest to debunk mental gymnastics. Just have a look at the bible and you'll find plenty of moments were god had no quarrels with interfering with people's free will, making them do what he wants either directly or indirectly and even if you do not want to reach there, then ask yourself: If god didn't want to interfere with the free will of the murderer, then what about the free will of the murdered? They certainly didn't want to die, or at least not die in the way they did. Why is the free will of the murderer more important than the free will of the murdered? This is exactly the type of mental gymnastics that make true believers so hard to take serious. They have to reach to absurd lengths to justify either the ill will or the willful ignorance of god and they can turn it however they please, but either god condones evil or ignores it. Such a being can not be good.

And please, do not reach for the "god has a plan" thing. If god is almighty, then god could have made us however he wanted, then he could change us to be however he wants us to be. He, however, choose to make us the way we are and this is making him directly responsible for everything bad that happens, because nothing can happen against his will, in fact, everything happens because of his will. Sending thoughts and prayers in such a case is, as stated before, outright offensive, especially when it is sincere.

Terry Pratchett framed prayer as "something you can do when there's nothing you can do."

In other words, it's a worthless action, an empty gesture. it's something to make you feel better, because it gives you the illusion of having a sort of agency in a matter, when you really have none. It's a waste of time.

I pray for an end to gun violence because I, personally, as Joe Fuckwad, an under-employed millenial living in a crowded row-house, have very little power to affect national policy and can do fuckall to prevent the next mass shooting. I called up my senators, begging them to pass ANY kind of basic gun regulation, for much the same reason. I, a powerless person, am petitioning inscrutable supernatural beings to act on my behalf. I ask those with power to do things for those who have none.

That is why it is insulting coming from these senators, while they deposite their fat NRA bribery checks.

At this point? I'm not even convinced they ARE praying for the shooting victims. I think they are praying thanks to God for rewarding their Seed in accordance with prosperity doctrine, and intend to keep doing whatever brings them more money because they've convinced themselves that earthly riches are a sign of divine favor.

See, you are not powerless. Your influence on many matters may be miniscule, but it is there. So why invest time into an empty gesture that does nothing, while at the same time there is something you can do? Don't pray for an end of gun violence, because that is just not going to happen, whether there is a god (because he doesn't mind it one way or another, maybe even condones it) or not (because how could gun violence end by praying, if literally nobody is hearing the praying). Instead of praying, call your representative and let him know how you feel about what actions could be taken and talk with other people about it, so they may change their mind as well and thus have a larger impact. Obviously, often that won't change a thing in the grand scheme of things, but at least you did what is within your power of doing. This is worth enormously more than praying to or for something, because in the end, a prayer will always be just a lot of empty words. Empty words that are, at best, a waste of everybody's time and, at worst, a cruel, mocking joke.

[technobabbler]

jiminy crickets. we're not taking about US foreign policy.

throw out a link to the Daily Mail for a story about some D-list celebrity's inconsequential Twitter flub makes me Nazi supporter.

Apologies. I'm not a Nazi. Next time I'll link to TMZ. Or Huffpost's gossip section. Only serious news organizations for twitter coverage.

Or the perhaps the NYTimes---famed for beating the Iraq War invasion drumbeats in 2003, Judith Miller and running fake news about Saddam's Dr. Evil plans to nuke the world.

Have a pleasant day.

[LittleRaven]

That is why it is insulting coming from these senators, while they deposite their fat NRA bribery checks.

For what it's worth, the idea that the NRA gets its way by flashing the sweet sweet loot is a myth. The NRA does have a lobbying budget, and it sounds kind of big....around $4 million bucks a year as of this year. But for a national lobbying fund...that's really not very impressive. At all. The National Realtors Association had $32 million on hand for lobbying this year, and pharmaceutical companies came loaded with an eye-popping $208 million. When it comes to money, the NRA is small potatoes.

What makes the NRA so powerful is that it brings something even more important than dollars to the table....they bring votes. The classic example is always Debra Maggart from Tennessee. In case you don't know the story, she was a prominent member of the
Tennessee House of Representatives, serving as Republican Caucus Whip. She had been serving for 8 years, was popular in her district, and seemed a lock for re-election....then she pissed off the NRA. They spent $50,000. $50,000 That's....not even pocket change in the world of politics. I'm struggling to come up with a good analogy for just how little money that is. It's like a penny you happen to find in your couch. The bought a few billboards talking about how Debra was siding with Obama to take away guns. And when the primary rolled around, Debra, one of the most powerful Republican legislators in the state, lost to Courtney Rogers, who had no political experience, no major financial backers, and no political connections.

That story...which has been repeated several times in several states with different people...is why politicians, particularly Republican ones, listen when the NRA talks. Most voters in the USA are not single-issue voters, but NRA voters by and large are. And that gives them a very out sized voice in our voting system, particularly when it comes to primaries.

[GandALF]

Damn it this is not the gun control thread, this is the Wil Wheaton is dumb on twitter thread.
Lets put away the National Rifle Theodicies and get back to business:

[Madner Kami]

True, Wesley should shup up, because even if he's technically right, he's still a twat.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Madner Kami, are you even LISTENING to me?

I DO contact my senators about this issue.

Also, you have committed a very common mistake of American atheists, that is, judging every single theist by the standards of Abrahamic Religion and Christianity in Particular.

I am a theist, but I do NOT follow, worship, or pray to Yaweh. I do NOT believe in an all-loving, all-powerful, AND all-knowing singular god who both created the world and runs the world. Yet your arguments are based on the supposition that I do.

For Hecate's sake, will ya'll PLEASE remember that more than one frelling religions exist? >_<