Once again, minorities get the short end of the stick.

[AllanO]

Again, in case you did not notice it, the same evidence for "systematic racism" used (blacks do not do as well in the U.S. by many economic or educational metrics) would, again, be evidence for systematic racism in favor of Jews (assuming Jews aren't whites for the purposes of these metrics; hardly the first time racial divisions have been rather arbitrary), Indians, and East Asians.

I do not deny that differences in achievements exists, I simply state that those differences are not solid evidence for systematic racism.

I think you miss my point. I was coincededing that those groups do not (as far as I know, and I really don't) face systematic barriers in the specific area of university admission and indeed may have institutions that favour them or whatever. Since as far as I know no one is advocating affirmative action for those groups and current initiatives do not cover them (again as far as I know), and the complaint that started this thread seems to be they are disfavoured by such processes, so it would seem like no one else seems to be arguing they face net negative systematic discrimination in that particular area either. So it seems like everyone agrees with you that those groups do not face that particular form of systematic challenge.

Your argument as I understand it would make sense if people were arguing they needed affirmative action type help in admission after they had already overcome any current discrimination or historic legacies. The thing is that does not seem to be happening.

What I meant was there lack of issues in one area does not mean they do not face systematic hurdles in other areas like say in the police force or armed forces.

I don't think the post you were replying to nor another in this thread by ABS is necessarily ignorant to the concept of systemic racism forms. However though they do imply directly that in order for white privilege etc... to exist then that indicates that all parties that satisfy as minority must follow suit. That's a point you made at the end, but it's not a condition that stems necessarily from ambivalence to systemic oppression or marginalization.

Well to me the question is not whether white privilege exists because that is several things, you would need to be more specific, it is whether some general white disadvantage exists, which I think is a pretty hard thing to argue.

I really don't see how the non-existence of white disadvantage requires that all non-whites are equally and identically subject to discrimination, historical legacies of poverty etc.

[Admiral X]

I like how people who believe the US still has systemic racism think the solution to this is to have more systemic racism. You people are just defending bigotry and brushing aside anyone who is effected by it with excuses.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I don't think the post you were replying to nor another in this thread by ABS is necessarily ignorant to the concept of systemic racism forms. However though they do imply directly that in order for white privilege etc... to exist then that indicates that all parties that satisfy as minority must follow suit. That's a point you made at the end, but it's not a condition that stems necessarily from ambivalence to systemic oppression or marginalization.

Well to me the question is not whether white privilege exists because that is several things, you would need to be more specific, it is whether some general white disadvantage exists, which I think is a pretty hard thing to argue.

I really don't see how the non-existence of white disadvantage requires that all non-whites are equally and identically subject to discrimination, historical legacies of poverty etc.

I think you might have been more on track than I led on, like quite considerably.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Again, in case you did not notice it, the same evidence for "systematic racism" used (blacks do not do as well in the U.S. by many economic or educational metrics) would, again, be evidence for systematic racism in favor of Jews (assuming Jews aren't whites for the purposes of these metrics; hardly the first time racial divisions have been rather arbitrary), Indians, and East Asians.

I do not deny that differences in achievements exists, I simply state that those differences are not solid evidence for systematic racism.

I think you miss my point. I was coincededing that those groups do not (as far as I know, and I really don't) face systematic barriers in the specific area of university admission and indeed may have institutions that favour them or whatever. Since as far as I know no one is advocating affirmative action for those groups and current initiatives do not cover them (again as far as I know), and the complaint that started this thread seems to be they are disfavoured by such processes, so it would seem like no one else seems to be arguing they face net negative systematic discrimination in that particular area either. So it seems like everyone agrees with you that those groups do not face that particular form of systematic challenge.

Your argument as I understand it would make sense if people were arguing they needed affirmative action type help in admission after they had already overcome any current discrimination or historic legacies. The thing is that does not seem to be happening.

What I meant was there lack of issues in one area does not mean they do not face systematic hurdles in other areas like say in the police force or armed forces.

An issue I see is that he presented evidence based on metrics that substantiate inequality. There's very understandable historical accounting that you learn in k-12 school about disenfranchisement of African American culture stemming from the days of slavery despite slavery being abolished as well as the 1960's civil rights movement. Otherwise, I really don't understand how someone with an understanding of that would turn around and go, "well why doesn't the Jewish culture have the same metrics" on the basis of them not being coded white.

[AllanO]

I like how people who believe the US still has systemic racism think the solution to this is to have more systemic racism. You people are just defending bigotry and brushing aside anyone who is effected by it with excuses.

If you are denying that systematic issues of inter-generational poverty and the like exist effecting things like enrollment rates in university then I think you are the one brushing stuff aside. If someone's attack on affirmative action or whatever involves them just brushing aside or denying the existence of actual problems, I am going to call it out because it is wrong and it is easy to point out why it is wrong.

Actually mounting a positive defense of affirmative action is a lot trickier, maybe it is not the best way to address those problems, which is why I did not do that, but denying the problems exist is definitely not the way to go.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Not to mention that it's pretty rude.

[Antiboyscout]

I like how people who believe the US still has systemic racism think the solution to this is to have more systemic racism. You people are just defending bigotry and brushing aside anyone who is effected by it with excuses.

If you are denying that systematic issues of inter-generational poverty and the like exist effecting things like enrollment rates in university then I think you are the one brushing stuff aside. If someone's attack on affirmative action or whatever involves them just brushing aside or denying the existence of actual problems, I am going to call it out because it is wrong and it is easy to point out why it is wrong.

Actually mounting a positive defense of affirmative action is a lot trickier, maybe it is not the best way to address those problems, which is why I did not do that, but denying the problems exist is definitely not the way to go.

Considering East Asians, Chinese specifically. Yes I deny it.

The historically poor treatment of Chinese in America is well known. Not as poor as slavery, but not a lot better. I don't think Hispanics were treated as poorly back then.
Yet, East Asians don't just outperform Blacks, they outperform Hispanics and Whites as well.

How did they break through this historical oppression? Why haven't Blacks?

[Admiral X]

If you are denying that systematic issues of inter-generational poverty and the like exist effecting things like enrollment rates in university then I think you are the one brushing stuff aside.

The only systematic racism and sexism is in the form of affirmative action. And I speak as one who has benefited from it.

If someone's attack on affirmative action or whatever involves them just brushing aside or denying the existence of actual problems, I am going to call it out because it is wrong and it is easy to point out why it is wrong.

I have a feeling we'd probably disagree on what are and aren't problems.

Actually mounting a positive defense of affirmative action is a lot trickier, maybe it is not the best way to address those problems, which is why I did not do that, but denying the problems exist is definitely not the way to go.

So in the end you're still defending discrimination based on race and/or sex. That's what it comes down to and there's no getting around it.

[AllanO]

Considering East Asians, Chinese specifically. Yes I deny it.

The historically poor treatment of Chinese in America is well known. Not as poor as slavery, but not a lot better. I don't think Hispanics were treated as poorly back then.
Yet, East Asians don't just outperform Blacks, they outperform Hispanics and Whites as well.

How did they break through this historical oppression? Why haven't Blacks?

Well first I was the one claiming you can still see legacies of discrimination against Chinese people in the current demographic statistics of things such as I said of who is a police officer or president etc. So they have not completely overcome it, but that does not mean the situation they find themselves in is identical to any other group. You were denying there was any metric on which they did not dominate which as I said seems pretty clearly wrong.

The ability of one group to overcome, eliminate or avoid hurdles in education admissions does not seem to require another to do the same. It seems likely to depend on various historic factors including parental poverty, community poverty (what sort of school districts you are in), parental educational attainment, parental priorities around education (cultural attitudes?) and so on. Whatever the explanation those all sound like institutions leading to the outcome, since that outcome is racial difference sounds like institutional or systematic racism to me, the fact that not all groups have the same institutions or get treated by them the same seems like part of the idea.

Now depending on what institutions are leading to the outcome, the interventions that make most sense could be very different and if it is the culture of parents that is the biggest factor (as say this study https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-why-do-asian-american-students-perform-better-than-whites-20140505-story.html suggested ) well then intervening there if possible (say foster changing cultural attitudes among target populations) would probably make more sense then the sort of diversity goals/ affirmative action schemes at the admissions time, but it would still be an intervention that responds to a problem and treats it as something that can change etc., which is very different from just saying there is no problem.

The only systematic racism and sexism is in the form of affirmative action. And I speak as one who has benefited from it.

So to be clear you simply deny that some racial groups differ in terms of rates of wealth and poverty, or you deny that those differences can lead to things like higher infant mortality rates, lower average life span. If so I am pretty sure you are just brushing aside actual people's problems.

[Darth Wedgius]

Again, in case you did not notice it, the same evidence for "systematic racism" used (blacks do not do as well in the U.S. by many economic or educational metrics) would, again, be evidence for systematic racism in favor of Jews (assuming Jews aren't whites for the purposes of these metrics; hardly the first time racial divisions have been rather arbitrary), Indians, and East Asians.

I do not deny that differences in achievements exists, I simply state that those differences are not solid evidence for systematic racism.

I think you miss my point. I was coincededing that those groups do not (as far as I know, and I really don't) face systematic barriers in the specific area of university admission and indeed may have institutions that favour them or whatever. Since as far as I know no one is advocating affirmative action for those groups and current initiatives do not cover them (again as far as I know), and the complaint that started this thread seems to be they are disfavoured by such processes, so it would seem like no one else seems to be arguing they face net negative systematic discrimination in that particular area either. So it seems like everyone agrees with you that those groups do not face that particular form of systematic challenge.

Your argument as I understand it would make sense if people were arguing they needed affirmative action type help in admission after they had already overcome any current discrimination or historic legacies. The thing is that does not seem to be happening.

What I meant was there lack of issues in one area does not mean they do not face systematic hurdles in other areas like say in the police force or armed forces.

I really don't see how the non-existence of white disadvantage requires that all non-whites are equally and identically subject to discrimination, historical legacies of poverty etc.

I'm not saying you were saying that Jews, Indians, or East Asians face discrimination., if that's what you meant by "those groups." You really need to learn to be specific.

I'm saying that differently levels of achievement between any racial groups in the U.S. in general cannot be taken as solid evidence of systemic discrimination unless the racist parts of the left would have us believe that systemic racism in the U.S. favors Jews, Indians, and East Asians.