Florida governor refuses to recognise transgender swimmer

[Frustration]

That's the question at hand - does the shoe actually fit? Or are you presuming the shape of people's feet and the suitable of the shoe for them?

Let's explore this further. Do you consider the segregation of women to their own athletic categories - whether in paid professional sports, or events such as the Olympics - actionable? If you don't, and you believe women are being prejudicially discriminated against, why not? If you do, do you support taking action against those responsible? If not, why not? If you do, why do you think there has been no such action taken by and on the behalf of women?

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I think the sex-segregation of sports was started for sexist reasons and continued because "we've always done it this way so there must be a good reason for it".

[Riedquat]

I think the sex-segregation of sports was started for sexist reasons and continued because "we've always done it this way so there must be a good reason for it".

Men are generally stronger and faster than women and in many sports strength and speed are of significant benefit. There's no use trying to pretend otherwise.

Are there any segregated sports where strength and speed don't matter? Golf maybe, although strength will help hit the ball further I get the impression technical skill is far more important, to the point where strength isn't really much of a contributor at all. But I'm not a golfer so who knows?

[Frustration]

Women have notably higher pain tolerance, greater manual dexterity, and more patience with repetitive tasks than men. Yes, there's a great deal of individual variation, but the difference in the distributions is obvious.

The key point is that, while many aspects of adult male and female physiology are influenced by hormone levels, a lot of physiological differences are set during fetal development and remain regardless of enculturation or later sex hormone changes. The effects range from grip strength to the structure of the pelvic bones to brain organization. The latter includes obvious effects like sexual orientation and subtler effects like interpersonal vs. systematizing thought. Many of these effects obviously don't change in sex reassignment, and their implications for athletic performance are highly debated.

[McAvoy]

I think the sex-segregation of sports was started for sexist reasons and continued because "we've always done it this way so there must be a good reason for it".

Men are generally stronger and faster than women and in many sports strength and speed are of significant benefit. There's no use trying to pretend otherwise.

Are there any segregated sports where strength and speed don't matter? Golf maybe, although strength will help hit the ball further I get the impression technical skill is far more important, to the point where strength isn't really much of a contributor at all. But I'm not a golfer so who knows?

Pool or billiards. Don't need strength for that at all. A woman can break just as good as a man can. That's the only time any amount of strength may be involved.

I have argued (not here) that one position in American Football where women can participate in is being a kicker. The player who kicks on kickoffs and does the 3 point kick.

In the modern NFL, good kickers are rare. And the rest are replaceable. No one in the their right mind would draft a kicker unless in the late rounds so they don't get picked up quickly post draft.

Now, where do women come in to this. By their nature, the kicker requires leg strength and skill. When I mean leg strength I don't mean body builder legs as there requires flexibility in the follow through.

My argument is that women may not be able to kick as far as men as in breaking Justin Tucker's 64 yard kick last year. But he is the elite of the elite and not many can even kick a 55 yarder let alone 60. But alot of teams do need a reliable kicker who can kick anywhere from 18 to 50 yards.

I think a properly trained of similar size to a male kicker, could do this without any physical limitations due to sex. In fact you could argue, there might be a marginal advantage for women due to their hips being wider and perhaps more stable in the kick.

This is just me though. Unfortunately the few times anyone tried this, it was very bad.

[Frustration]

Pool or billiards. Don't need strength for that at all. A woman can break just as good as a man can. That's the only time any amount of strength may be involved.

Beyond a certain minimal level, strength doesn't help in pool. Coordination is required. Do women have the same distribution for physical coordination as men?

(That's a trick question - even when the mean are the game for both sexes, men's distribution on all traits is broader than women's, which means they always dominate the tails - positive or negative. They are always disproportionally represented among the most, and the least, successful, when the means are more-or-less equal. The issue is whether women are better.)

I have argued (not here) that one position in American Football where I think a properly trained of similar size to a male kicker, could do this without any physical limitations due to sex. In fact you could argue, there might be a marginal advantage for women due to their hips being wider and perhaps more stable in the kick.

Possibly. It's known that the trade-off natural selection made between maximal performance and ability to birth children without dying means women's pelvic structure is a minor disadvantage for running, compared to men. I have no idea whether they're equally-good football kickers.

There are other issues, not least that women don't seem to have the same interest in sports, and *definitely* don't receive the same encouragement to excel athletically. So even if there are potential talented female kickers out there, they'd be hard to find.

[hammerofglass]

Source: trust me, bro.

[Riedquat]

I think the sex-segregation of sports was started for sexist reasons and continued because "we've always done it this way so there must be a good reason for it".

Men are generally stronger and faster than women and in many sports strength and speed are of significant benefit. There's no use trying to pretend otherwise.

Are there any segregated sports where strength and speed don't matter? Golf maybe, although strength will help hit the ball further I get the impression technical skill is far more important, to the point where strength isn't really much of a contributor at all. But I'm not a golfer so who knows?

Pool or billiards. Don't need strength for that at all. A woman can break just as good as a man can. That's the only time any amount of strength may be involved.

Yeah, games like that will have a hard time convincing me that there's any good reason for separate mens and womens categories, that it makes any difference at all. Any signs of difference in performance would seem to be far more explained by social factors, i.e. far more men play than women so you're more likely to get a chance for male players rising to the top.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Throwing out a new question: is there any forensic evidence that people legislating and enforcing bans on trans women in sports have ever before given a solitary fuck about women's sports in their lives, or do they develop this interest only when it lets them persecute trans women?

[McAvoy]

Pool or billiards. Don't need strength for that at all. A woman can break just as good as a man can. That's the only time any amount of strength may be involved.

Beyond a certain minimal level, strength doesn't help in pool. Coordination is required. Do women have the same distribution for physical coordination as men?

(That's a trick question - even when the mean are the game for both sexes, men's distribution on all traits is broader than women's, which means they always dominate the tails - positive or negative. They are always disproportionally represented among the most, and the least, successful, when the means are more-or-less equal. The issue is whether women are better.)

I have argued (not here) that one position in American Football where I think a properly trained of similar size to a male kicker, could do this without any physical limitations due to sex. In fact you could argue, there might be a marginal advantage for women due to their hips being wider and perhaps more stable in the kick.

Possibly. It's known that the trade-off natural selection made between maximal performance and ability to birth children without dying means women's pelvic structure is a minor disadvantage for running, compared to men. I have no idea whether they're equally-good football kickers.

There are other issues, not least that women don't seem to have the same interest in sports, and *definitely* don't receive the same encouragement to excel athletically. So even if there are potential talented female kickers out there, they'd be hard to find.

Pretty much this. Alot would have to change to truly get a comparison between a male kicker and a female kicker. So far the handful that have attempted, high school and college, they were pretty bad.

Afterall, there is skill involved otherwise anyone could do it. Like I said before, the position only has a handful of good kickers versus majority are not that good and don't last that long.