Recent Political Violence in America

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LittleRaven
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Re: Recent Political Violence in America

Post by LittleRaven »

Darth Wedgius wrote:I doubt this thread will go far down the direction I'd hoped, so I'll give my thoughts.
Hey Darth, I really appreciate you posting your thoughts on what the political right in America should be doing - that's an interesting topic at any time, and doubly so now, as the party foundation that has existed for the last 30 years begins to fall apart beneath our feet.
I'd like the right to emphasize what I see as its best feature -- support of the individual.
I sympathize with this, but I don't know what that translates to in terms of actual policy. What kinds of legislation do you think would help emphasize the individual?

I'm not trying to put you on the spot, I'm just genuinely at a loss. It seems to me that one of the big problems we're encountering today is that automation and globalization are rapidly diminishing the economic power of the individual. Let's face it...the only thing 99% of us have to offer the world is our labor, and economic forces are making that less valuable every day. I can imagine government policies that attempt to reverse this trend by economically empowering the individual...but I have a hard time labeling any of them as 'conservative,' and I have an even harder time imagining very many on the right adopting them.
I'd also like the right to move toward devolving more powers to the states.
Again, I sympathize with the sentiment, but I'm worried about the actual policy. Federalism worked pretty well when the world was less integrated, but that time has long since passed. The things that affect Americans today are BIG. Healthcare has grown to ~18% of our economy. That's trillions of dollars. Multinational corporations with asset chests bigger than many nations GDPs move hundreds of billions across borders with the tap of a keyboard. Facebook, Fox and CNN mean there are no 'local' movements anymore; everyone gets a front row seat for Charlottesville and people living in Maine are super vocal about what should be happening in Georgia. (and vice versa!)

How can Federalism possibly thrive in that environment? States simply don't have the resources to fight any of these trends on their own, and even if they tried, a fragmented approach is going to prove so inefficient in terms of scale that it will fail even if it's a good idea. Sure, states can tinker around on the margins....Texas can ban cities from banning plastic bags, while California bans them statewide, but neither Texas or California can realistically replace the Federal government's role in health care. It's just too big.
I'd like to come up with an alternative to universities, which have suffered from serious inflation for some time now.
Well, here you're in luck, because people are already doing that. And fairly successfully too, at least as far as we can tell from testing. But alternative forms of education probably aren't going to help with the university problems, because that's not really an issue of education so much as it an issue of credentials. People are desperate to have their children go to college not because they want them to learn but because they know that potential employers are going to want them to have a college degree. And because labor is constantly being devalued, there is a never ending stream of potential employees for employers to choose from, so they get to demand whatever they want. Breaking that negative cycle will involve convincing employers that a college degree is not something they should demand from their employees...and that's going to be hard. I'm skeptical that we could get there before automation makes the whole employment equation kind of moot anyway.

Since you were good enough to include your thoughts on the right, I may as well respond with some of my thoughts on the left.

I think the left is being horribly blind to the economic tsunami that will engulf our nation in the coming decade. The machines are coming and nobody in the Democratic Party seems to have the faintest clue about how we’re supposed to deal with them.

The Democratic leadership is much, much too old. I like Biden as much as the next guy, but the man is seventy four years old. And people are talking about him running in 2020? Insanity. Pelosi is damn near 80. Schumer is the baby of the bunch at a mere 66. They desperately need some young blood in there. I realize there are a few whippersnappers trying to bust into the inner circle, and some of them have promise, but nobody is there yet.

And finally, there is a small but growing trend among the extreme left to try to shut down speakers that they find offensive or distasteful. This is terrible, terrible idea, and the mainstream left needs to push back hard against it. To the Democrat’s credit, they have largely done just that - most of these protests have been led by students that are still in the young and stupid phase of life, and their actions have found relatively little support outside of that bubble. But it’s best to nip such movements in the bud – the Republicans are getting an object lesson in what happens when you give your extremists too much room to run. We don’t want the left to make the same mistake.

Wow, that went on longer than expected. I appreciated the discussion, Darth.
The Romulan Republic
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Re: Recent Political Violence in America

Post by The Romulan Republic »

The OP is basically following the same path as Trump by focussing more on violence from the Left, implying equivalency between the two sides, or even that the Left is more at fault.

Is there violence on the Left? Yes, to an extent. It should not be condoned.

But there is no equivalency, especially not here.

What do we know?

-Thousands of Right-wing extremists and white supremacists descended on a small town, many wielding torches, carrying firearms, carrying Swastika flags, and chanting threatening and bigoted slogans including "Jews will not replace us" and "Blood and soil". They did this ostensibly to "protest" the removal of a statue of a man who committed treason against this country in defence of a slave state.

-A group of them viciously assaulted and beat a black man.

-One of them rammed a car, ISIS-style, into a crowd of protesters, injuring 19 people and killing an innocent woman, an act which far exceeds any violence on the Left.

-Our "President" then attempted to equate the two sides, without condemning the white supremacists. Under pressure, he eventually did so, two days late- then immediately backtracked to his first response, revealing him as the liar that he is (his own people admit that these are the views he expresses in private). Violent extremism on the Left does not enjoy this sort of support from party leadership or major national political figures.

There is no equivalency here. And if you say that there is, then you are de facto supporting white supremacist terrorism.

That said, I have been greatly encouraged by the overall response from the public, the media, and even from some Republican politicians. I am disappointed to see a few people (not in positions of power) on the Left advocating restrictive hate speech laws or violent responses (things I think would do more harm than good, and accomplish nothing except to play into Trump's narrative), but on the whole, the response has been right. I think that for many people, this is the wake-up call they needed.

Two moments in particular stand out to me:

1. Watching a Republican strategist on CNN accuse Trump of giving "aid and comfort" to the white supremacists, a very specific choice of words which implies that Trump's actions are comparably to treason.

2. His entire business council resigning.

That said... talk is cheap. Republican condemnation of Trump (however overdue) is a good start, but in the end, if they really want this to stop, there's only one way to do it: remove Trump from office, via either impeachment, or on the grounds that he is mentally unfit for office.
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Re: Recent Political Violence in America

Post by Darth Wedgius »

The Romulan Republic wrote:The OP is basically following the same path as Trump by focussing more on violence from the Left, implying equivalency between the two sides, or even that the Left is more at fault.
Where did I do that? As far as I could tell, I treated both situations as problems needing redress, and I am not aware that I put emphasis on either side, and did not say that there was a moral equivalency or a lack of moral equivalency. Is it your assertion that if someone mentions two situations with some parallels, that the situations are to be understood as equivalent?

If you could tell me where I did that, I'd be most appreciative. If you cannot, I will be most entertained. So it'll make for a pleasant afternoon for me, either way.
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Re: Recent Political Violence in America

Post by The Romulan Republic »

From your OP:
Darth Wedgius wrote:So there was a big protest and someone got violent. The group has had a history of saying hateful things and has maybe-perhaps-sort-of-but-not-quite called for violence, but has said that this person did not represent them.
More than one person who committed violence on the Right (prior to the car driving into a crowd, their was an assault of a black man by a group of white supremacists caught on tape). So either unaware of, or downplaying, the level of violence on the Right.
BLM and the shootings in Dallas? White nationalists in Charlottesville?
Implies an equivalency between Black Lives Matter (which overall is not a violent group) and the white supremacists in Charlottesville.
Antifa seem to have many fans of (non-lethal, as far as I know) violence towards those they consider to have unacceptable beliefs. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find that neo-Nazis have their own fans of violence, perhaps. It's hard to have a really proper genocide without it. You miss the whole spirit of the thing, really.
Portrays Antifa as comparably violent to the neo-Nazis.

If that was not your intention, then you need to be more precise in how you word your posts (probably something we can all work on, to be honest).
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Re: Recent Political Violence in America

Post by Darth Wedgius »

LittleRaven wrote: Hey Darth, I really appreciate you posting your thoughts on what the political right in America should be doing - that's an interesting topic at any time, and doubly so now, as the party foundation that has existed for the last 30 years begins to fall apart beneath our feet.
Thanks. I started this thread to address the problem of violence, and it looks like I more or less started World War III. I'm beginning to sympathize with the Prime Directive a lot more than I used to.
LittleRaven wrote:
I'd like the right to emphasize what I see as its best feature -- support of the individual.
I sympathize with this, but I don't know what that translates to in terms of actual policy. What kinds of legislation do you think would help emphasize the individual?
I meant an emphasis in the rhetoric of the right, though steering legislation in that direction wouldn't hurt. Putting our money where our mouths are kind of thing. White nationalism is a collective identity kind of thing, and I think the fundamental conflict between individualism and that collective identity is something that can be wielded at a soft underbelly.

But I think that rhetoric and discussion are the ideal tools for blunting white nationalism. I do not want white nationalists to be unable to speak their mind, as long as they aren't advocating violence, treason, criminal activity, a revival of Space 1999, or such.
LittleRaven wrote:
I'd also like the right to move toward devolving more powers to the states.
Again, I sympathize with the sentiment, but I'm worried about the actual policy...
I think your concerns are well-founded, but I think the risks are likely greater than the rewards. This may be my innate distrust of concentration of power, but I'd like to get away from the current state, where the federal government can influence local policy by threatening to withhold highway funding. The current fight over sanctuary cities is similar; California wants to let illegal immigrants stay, and the federal government wants 'em out. If California were already paying for all of those illegal immigrants' social services, I think the rest of the nation, even those who want much harsher treatment of illegal immigrants, would have less concern and/or justification.
The really big companies already deal with state laws. This would make that problem worse for them, but I don't mind giving the guys operating more locally a bit of an advantage. Heaven knows they're at enough disadvantage

At least, I think some movement in that direction (tentative, limited, slow -- think Harry Kim on a blind date) is worth a try.
LittleRaven wrote:
I'd like to come up with an alternative to universities, which have suffered from serious inflation for some time now.
Well, here you're in luck, because people are already doing that. And fairly successfully too, at least as far as we can tell from testing. But alternative forms of education probably aren't going to help with the university problems, because that's not really an issue of education so much as it an issue of credentials.
When I said an alternative to college, I should have been clearer. These would be courses giving credentials to be seen as equivalent to college degrees.

The march of the machines is a concern. A big one. Like Skynet's smarter and subtler brother. A factory job putting tab A into slot B all day put food on a lot of tables once upon a time. I hope that leveraging machines for education may help compensate, as I think machines are less able to do jobs requiring such education. Well, for now, anyway. It won't be a panacea, of course; I think the machines are coming in faster than we can compensate for, and there'll be a lag. And some people just aren't really suited for college, for a number of reasons. It'd just be a band-aid for a while, but that's better than bleeding all over the place.
LittleRaven wrote: Since you were good enough to include your thoughts on the right, I may as well respond with some of my thoughts on the left.
Thank you again. This kind of thing is what I was after.
LittleRaven wrote: I think the left is being horribly blind to the economic tsunami that will engulf our nation in the coming decade. The machines are coming and nobody in the Democratic Party seems to have the faintest clue about how we’re supposed to deal with them.
Yes and yes, sadly. I think that even if much cheaper education helps, it won't be nearly enough. Even if more efficient industry boosts the economy for a universal wage to come into effect without much opposition, I don't see having many people around who have become, bluntly, economically obsolete to be a good thing.
LittleRaven wrote: The Democratic leadership is much, much too old.
I wanted to acknowledge this, and I can see where it would help young people (the ones throwing rocks or murdering peaceful protesters with cars) relate, and, maybe, vice-versa. That's all I can think to say on that one.
LittleRaven wrote: And finally, there is a small but growing trend among the extreme left to try to shut down speakers that they find offensive or distasteful. This is terrible, terrible idea, and the mainstream left needs to push back hard against it.
I can only agree. And hope it doesn't backfire (David Duke and I are both right-wing, but I'd rather see the current violent fractiousness doubles than to have that racist slime gain serious support).
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Re: Recent Political Violence in America

Post by Darth Wedgius »

NOTE: This was edited to be a teensy bit more forgiving.
BLM and the shootings in Dallas? White nationalists in Charlottesville?
Implies an equivalency between Black Lives Matter (which overall is not a violent group) and the white supremacists in Charlottesville.
So your answer is that listing things implies that they are equivalent unless I say they are not.
If that was not your intention, then you need to be more precise in how you word your posts (probably something we can all work on, to be honest).
No. I suggest an alternate plan of action -- you should read and respond to what I write as if I actually mean exactly what I write, without making assumptions about what is between the lines. This seems, to me, to be the more straightforward option, and you have more control over what you infer than I do.
LittleRaven
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Re: Recent Political Violence in America

Post by LittleRaven »

Darth Wedgius wrote:I meant an emphasis in the rhetoric of the right, though steering legislation in that direction wouldn't hurt.
To the extent that the right has a problem, it doesn't seem to be with rhetoric. Quite the opposite, really. Their rhetorical skill has given them victory after victory in the electoral arena.
Our analysis shows Democrats have lost 910 seats since Obama took office.

...

The bottom line: Republicans now control about 56 percent of the country’s 7,383 state legislative seats, up 12 percentage points since 2009.

Thirty-five states posted double-digit seat losses for the Democrats in state legislatures, including more than 50 seats each in Arkansas, New Hampshire and West Virginia.
Heck, they even managed to take down Hillary Clinton, whom virtually every pollster identified as a lock for the White House. Evidence suggests they have rhetoric down pat. It's actual policy that is giving them problems. Why would they change the rhetoric, when that's working great, and not focus on the policy, since that's where they're hurting?
The really big companies already deal with state laws. This would make that problem worse for them, but I don't mind giving the guys operating more locally a bit of an advantage.
No, it doesn't make it harder. It makes it easier. Amazon and Apple can just roll over most state legislatures, assuming they don't ignore them entirely. All but the largest states are just too small to stand up to the giant forces that are being built up around the globe. That's what is at the heart of things like Brexit, Marine Le Pen, and arguably Trump. People can feel control slipping away from local power centers, and that makes them nervous. It IS slipping away, but Federalism won't help that. It'll just make it worse, because what's really growing in power is capital, and capital isn't controlled by government.
These would be courses giving credentials to be seen as equivalent to college degrees.
That's not really something politics can solve, except for government jobs, I guess. You'd have to convince employers to see alternatives as equivalent, and I have no idea how the government can help with that one.
Even if more efficient industry boosts the economy for a universal wage to come into effect without much opposition, I don't see having many people around who have become, bluntly, economically obsolete to be a good thing.
It will fundamentally alter our relationship to government, that's for sure. The smart conservatives that I know are already struggling with how to shape that new relationship into something that they could find at least somewhat satisfactory...but I don't think any of them have come up with any good solutions yet.
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Re: Recent Political Violence in America

Post by Arkle »

LittleRaven wrote:Quite the opposite, really. Their rhetorical skill has given them victory after victory in the electoral arena.
By "Rhetorical skill" I think you mean "Gerrymandering and restrictive voter ID laws."
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Re: Recent Political Violence in America

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Don't forget the collusion with Vladimir Putin!
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Re: Recent Political Violence in America

Post by Arkle »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Don't forget the collusion with Vladimir Putin!
I'm pretty sure it happened, which is why I support the investigation, but that said I do have concerns that how much of an impact it had on the election is open to debate and trying to pin the whole thing on that is a mistake. I don't doubt it had an effect, I'm just not sure how much of one. It's possible that you could remove the Putin effect and all that would happen is that the popular vote gap between Trump and Hillary would be bigger but the electoral college result would be the same.
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