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phantom000 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:07 amPeople love to talk about how before the war it was 'the United States are' and after the war it was 'the United States is' I think a very big reason for that is because of Lee and the Confederates who followed his example.
Well they should have thought about that before they started a war.
That makes me think of what the Romulan captain said to counselor Troi in Face of the Enemy
"People blame the military for the wars that we are asked to fight, but I think it is your kind, Major, that will be the death of us all."
In a letter from 1861 Lee stated that secession was a bad idea and advised against it.
The South, in my opinion, has been aggrieved by the acts of the North, as you say. I feel the aggression, and am willing to take every proper step for redress. It is the principle I contend for, not individual or private benefit. As an American citizen, I take great pride in my country, her prosperity and institutions, and would defend any State if her rights were invaded. But I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than a dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honor for its preservation. I hope, therefore, that all constitutional means will be exhausted before there is a resort to force. Secession is nothing but revolution. The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for "perpetual union," so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assembled.
Okay but that doesn't excuse him for going to war. Especially for the reasons they did. He can't just go "oh haha I was just trying to get you to change your mind. haha mai bad xD."
What scares me, about that attitude, is how easily it could be applied to what is going on right now, like with the Police. If one argues that a sense of duty is not a defense for being on 'the wrong side' then why couldn't they use that to justify violence against police officers and city officials right now?
If someone argues that American society and justice system racial prejudice, a claim I personally do not fully deny, then aren't the police the ones promoting racial inequality by protecting the system that keeps it in place? And if they are defending such a system, doesn't that make them like the Confederates who fought and died to protect slavery?
I'm not saying that's what you, or necessarily anyone is thinking but if that is a person's attitude 'that a sense of duty is no justification' then why don't they take that next step?
Thebestoftherest wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:05 am
Agree and those statues is to promote a lie. Removing one lie doesn't mean another lie just happened.
It also doesn't necessarily mean what you replace it with is automatically true, either. I'm not entirely convinced that people want to tear them all down simply because it makes it easier to write their own version of what happened.
So? It also doesn't necessarily mean that shares in gamestop will improve or that we'll learn how to build space elevators. "What do we put on those empty plinths instead?" is a separate issue that can be weighed and discussed by the affected communities. Taking down statues that support a lie, glorify a lost cause, and promote the idea that you deserve a participation trophy even if you committed treason and then failed is an unambiguous good.
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
— Un Lun Dun, China Mieville
phantom000 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:07 amPeople love to talk about how before the war it was 'the United States are' and after the war it was 'the United States is' I think a very big reason for that is because of Lee and the Confederates who followed his example.
Well they should have thought about that before they started a war.
That makes me think of what the Romulan captain said to counselor Troi in Face of the Enemy
"People blame the military for the wars that we are asked to fight, but I think it is your kind, Major, that will be the death of us all."
In a letter from 1861 Lee stated that secession was a bad idea and advised against it.
The South, in my opinion, has been aggrieved by the acts of the North, as you say. I feel the aggression, and am willing to take every proper step for redress. It is the principle I contend for, not individual or private benefit. As an American citizen, I take great pride in my country, her prosperity and institutions, and would defend any State if her rights were invaded. But I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than a dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honor for its preservation. I hope, therefore, that all constitutional means will be exhausted before there is a resort to force. Secession is nothing but revolution. The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for "perpetual union," so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assembled.
Okay but that doesn't excuse him for going to war. Especially for the reasons they did. He can't just go "oh haha I was just trying to get you to change your mind. haha mai bad xD."
What scares me, about that attitude, is how easily it could be applied to what is going on right now, like with the Police. If one argues that a sense of duty is not a defense for being on 'the wrong side' then why couldn't they use that to justify violence against police officers and city officials right now?
If someone argues that American society and justice system racial prejudice, a claim I personally do not fully deny, then aren't the police the ones promoting racial inequality by protecting the system that keeps it in place? And if they are defending such a system, doesn't that make them like the Confederates who fought and died to protect slavery?
I'm not saying that's what you, or necessarily anyone is thinking but if that is a person's attitude 'that a sense of duty is no justification' then why don't they take that next step?
Because these are lifeless statues we are taking down from places of public honor instead of people we are killing.
"Believe me, there’s nothing so terrible that someone won’t support it."
— Un Lun Dun, China Mieville
I think we should put up a monument to the Confederate soldiers. Something nice and big:
"This is to a bunch of thoughtless fools, who followed traitors in the name of owning other humans
They killed tens of thousands of people and died themselves
In the name of possessing another person as property
Try not to be like them. Be better."
Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs
phantom000 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:07 amPeople love to talk about how before the war it was 'the United States are' and after the war it was 'the United States is' I think a very big reason for that is because of Lee and the Confederates who followed his example.
Well they should have thought about that before they started a war.
That makes me think of what the Romulan captain said to counselor Troi in Face of the Enemy
"People blame the military for the wars that we are asked to fight, but I think it is your kind, Major, that will be the death of us all."
In a letter from 1861 Lee stated that secession was a bad idea and advised against it.
The South, in my opinion, has been aggrieved by the acts of the North, as you say. I feel the aggression, and am willing to take every proper step for redress. It is the principle I contend for, not individual or private benefit. As an American citizen, I take great pride in my country, her prosperity and institutions, and would defend any State if her rights were invaded. But I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than a dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honor for its preservation. I hope, therefore, that all constitutional means will be exhausted before there is a resort to force. Secession is nothing but revolution. The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for "perpetual union," so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assembled.
Okay but that doesn't excuse him for going to war. Especially for the reasons they did. He can't just go "oh haha I was just trying to get you to change your mind. haha mai bad xD."
Lee was also a really bastard of a slaver. Lee's father in law had ordered that his slaves be set free within five years of his death. To prevent this, Lee fought a protracted legal battle to basically claim it was not yet feasible to release those slaves. Citation here in case there is any doubt.
