JK Rowling Backlash

[Darth Wedgius]

I for one find Darth being dog-piled by further right people hilarious.

It's just one dog

[Darth Wedgius]

AlucardNoir, you can point to any of those as the Real and True(tm) definition of a man or woman, but those have not been accepted by the vast majority of people. You could just as well say that the presence of a Y chromosome in a human defines a man, regardless of androgen insensitivity.

That's why it's semantics. There's no general agreement.

If I say that what I drive around in is a kitchen, I'm disagreeing with the vast majority of English speakers. That does not happen with "man" or "woman."

Please tell me this is starting to sink in.

No longer accepted by feminists and gender studies degree holders doesn't mean they're no longer accepted by the rest of the world. So no, no nothing you're saying is sinking in.

And yet people who are neither feminists nor have gender studies degrees can fall on either side of the "trans-women are women. period." assertion.

Thus the whole JK Rolling and TERF discussion.

So the "if you're born with a penis you're a man, no matter what" vs. "if you call yourself a woman, you're a woman" and all the grades between, will keep repeating their opinions as facts.

Fun fact: Biology is a science, not opinion.

Yes, biology is a science, not opinion. I'm not contending otherwise.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

So I got up wee before the sunrise and found some time in my pocket to watch the new CP video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjMPJVmXxV8

I really liked it and think it's up to caliber with all her other videos that I really like.

Relevant subject to this forum/thread, Steve Shives, said he had reserves for parts of the video he described as "extremely disappointing." I heartily respect his discretion on the matter, though I am now intrigued by the newly discourse surmounting (not by him of course lol he even went so far as to explicitly detach himself from the discussion in a follow up tweet).

As usual I see CP talking on points of sensibility with communicative understanding of different movements and staying on pretty firm objectively appropriate ground, though I'd suspect that some might feel it leaves something to be desired; possibly of self accountability, or of more concisely decisive stance on certain matters?

[CmdrKing]

At this stage I basically consider ContraPoints a bad-faith actor, and getting into the hows and whys in a compelling way would get lost in the weeds incredibly quickly with an audience not versed in the topic.

In the interest of not being TOO vague, this is my conclusion, divorced of all the supporting evidence:

Suffice to say it stems from an extremely performance-focused philosophical definition of being trans that's generally considered not merely wrong but harmful with potentially far reaching negative consequences to trans rights efforts, and all attempts to add nuance and improve this original definition have resulted in escalating damage to the community and increasingly harmful conclusions being delivered to the large, overwhelmingly cis audience.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

At this stage I basically consider ContraPoints a bad-faith actor, and getting into the hows and whys in a compelling way would get lost in the weeds incredibly quickly with an audience not versed in the topic.

In the interest of not being TOO vague, this is my conclusion, divorced of all the supporting evidence:

Suffice to say it stems from an extremely performance-focused philosophical definition of being trans that's generally considered not merely wrong but harmful with potentially far reaching negative consequences to trans rights efforts, and all attempts to add nuance and improve this original definition have resulted in escalating damage to the community and increasingly harmful conclusions being delivered to the large, overwhelmingly cis audience.

Performance-focused as in, like, semblance? 'Cause I do remember that topic being unpacked in a video, though more to the effect of apprising than informing, which characterizes pretty much any of her videos I've seen.

[LittleRaven]

At this stage I basically consider ContraPoints a bad-faith actor, and getting into the hows and whys in a compelling way would get lost in the weeds incredibly quickly with an audience not versed in the topic.

Wait. Natalie Wynn, who is one of, if not THE biggest, most influential Youtuber the Left has (especially on trans-issues!)...is a bad faith actor. Not that she made a mistake, or had a bad day, or is wrong about one particular issue...she's a bad faith actor. That's...awfully essentialist of you.

Moreover, that stance seems to reflect VERY badly on many other prominent members of the Youtube Left. People like Ollie Thorn, Lindsay Ellis, hbomberguy...they have all come out in support of Natalie and their continued friendship with her, even if they cage a bit on just how much they agree with some of the things she's said. This is a reasonable thing to do even if they think she's mistaken when it comes to her theory of gender identity...I suspect nobody here agrees with every one of their friends about every single thing. I certainly don't - hell, I have friends who hold views I consider damn near insane...but I wouldn't characterize any of my friends as 'bad faith actors.' That's...quite a slur, actually, and so if Contrapoints really IS that, then all of these other people (who actually KNOW Natalie, as opposed to us plebs, who only watch her...) are either dups who are incapable of seeing her for what really she is, or worse - they know exactly what she is, and support her anyway.

That's a dark place to be.

[AlucardNoir]

While I'm not aware of who this CounterPoint person is I'll say this much: "bad faith actor" is only a slur if it's false. If she's talked about a certain topic before but not distanced themselves of from the baggage around said topic that they personally disagree with then when they finally do that it's understandable people might feel they are a bad faith actor. If they didn't distance themselves intentionally then they are. If they just didn't think of doing it they aren't. You can't call someone a hypocrite because of assumptions you made about them, but you can call them a bad faith actor if they only pretended to share your values whist holding contradictory ones in private.

As for you second point, the one about the rest of the YT left not condemning her and you being understandable when it comes to it... now that might be quite a bit hypocritical on your part, depending on how you feel about people defending rapists, racists and the like by claiming the accused never did anything untoward against them or in their presence in the past.

[LittleRaven]

While I'm not aware of who this CounterPoint person is I'll say this much: "bad faith actor" is only a slur if it's false.

Uh....it's a compliment if it's true?

In what context is calling someone a "bad faith actor" a commendation on their character?

As for you second point, the one about the rest of the YT left not condemning her and you being understandable when it comes to it... now that might be quite a bit hypocritical on your part, depending on how you feel about people defending rapists, racists and the like by claiming the accused never did anything untoward against them or in their presence in the past.

Didn't we hash all this out with Ellen DeGeneres just like 2 months ago? And wasn't the cultural consensus among the Left that you cannot be friends with Bush and remain a person of good character, regardless of how nice he's been to you in the past?

[AlucardNoir]

While I'm not aware of who this CounterPoint person is I'll say this much: "bad faith actor" is only a slur if it's false.

Uh....it's a compliment if it's true?

In what context is calling someone a "bad faith actor" a commendation on their character?

Where did I say it was a compliment. I said it wasn't a slur if it was true, the same way calling someone who isn't a fascist a fascists is a slur, but it stops being one when you are referring to actual fascists. If you call Mussolini a fascist you're not insulting him, you're describing his political ideology. If you're calling someone on an internet forum a fascist because they disagree with you... well then, that's a slur, now isn't it?

If someone is actually a bad faith actor you are not insult them by calling them that, you're describing them.

As for you second point, the one about the rest of the YT left not condemning her and you being understandable when it comes to it... now that might be quite a bit hypocritical on your part, depending on how you feel about people defending rapists, racists and the like by claiming the accused never did anything untoward against them or in their presence in the past.

Didn't we hash all this out with Ellen DeGeneres just like 2 months ago? And wasn't the cultural consensus among the Left that you cannot be friends with Bush and remain a person of good character, regardless of how nice he's been to you in the past?

Well, I'm not on the left... despite of what the political compas quiz might tell me. I'm also not on the right inspire of accusation levied against me on several internet forums. I could tell you as much about the right as I could tell you about the left. IF that is nonetheless the conclusion "the left" has come to, and you claim to be on the left... well, that does seem a lot like hypocrisy on your part and that of the other YT... if the allegations of bad faith are correct.

[LittleRaven]

Where did I say it was a compliment. I said it wasn't a slur if it was true, the same way calling someone who isn't a fascist a fascists is a slur, but it stops being one when you are referring to actual fascists.

I think you're confusing "slur" and "slander." Truth is the ultimate defense against the latter, and has no bearing at all on the former. What determines if something is a slur is not whether or not it is a fact but the cultural context of where it is delivered. If I call someone "white trash" in a fancy New York restaurant - that's a slur, even if the person in question is in fact white and poor.

Calling someone a fascist is most definitely a slur in pretty much every modern Western nation, even if they're an honest to God Nazi, because the culture they operate in will judge them negatively for being associated with that word. Interesting, calling a fascist a fascist in Nazi Germany would NOT be a slur, because in THAT culture, being a fascist is a compliment.

CmdrKing may be right or wrong about Natalie being a bad faith actor. But regardless of the truth of the accusation, it's most definitely a slur.

Well, I'm not on the left... despite of what the political compas quiz might tell me. I'm also not on the right inspire of accusation levied against me on several internet forums. I could tell you as much about the right as I could tell you about the left. IF that is nonetheless the conclusion "the left" has come to, and you claim to be on the left... well, that does seem a lot like hypocrisy on your part and that of the other YT... if the allegations of bad faith are correct.

You didn't follow the whole Ellen thing? It dominated Twitter and Youtube for like, 2 weeks. Hell, it even made the papers! BOOMERS weighed in on it.

Either I'm watching too much Youtube or you aren't watching enough.