Coronavirus - the new pandemic

[clearspira]

Trump is for masks now.

This man changes his views on Covid-19 more often than Barbie changes clothes.

[GreyICE]

Trump is for masks now.

This man changes his views on Covid-19 more often than Barbie changes clothes.

I remember someone did a breakdown of like a whole bunch of issues where Trump comes out strongly condemning them and then strongly supporting them. It's tons. We're not talking John Kerry "I voted against the appropriations bill and then some things changed and I voted for it", it was like major shit.

Like flipping his position on Net Neutrality a complete 180, supported taking the confederate flag down then defended it, strongly condemned David Duke and then said he wouldn't condemn him and didn't even know him, saying that anyone who criticized an FBI investigation was a loser and obviously guilty, stuff like that.

[Darth Wedgius]

Hydroxychloroquine could save up to 100,000 lives if used for COVID-19: Yale epidemiology professor

https://www.foxnews.com/media/hydroxychloroquine-could-save-lives-ingraham-yale-professor

Absolutely nobody would be disappointed by this news, I'm sure.

[GreyICE]

Hydroxychloroquine could save up to 100,000 lives if used for COVID-19: Yale epidemiology professor

https://www.foxnews.com/media/hydroxychloroquine-could-save-lives-ingraham-yale-professor

Absolutely nobody would be disappointed by this news, I'm sure.

The last time one of these studies came out this way, it was a retrospective observational as well. As hydroclorinique is not proscribed for people with cardiac risk failures, and cardiac risk factors are also risk factors for COVID death, these results are very sketchy. For instance, look at the raw numbers:

• hydroxychloroquine alone: 13.5% (1202 patients)
• azithromycin alone: 22.4% (147 patients)
• hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin: 20.1% (783 patients)
• No drugs: 26.4% (409 patients)

This isn't a randomized trial. You can see Azithromycin is saved for severely ill patients (it's risky), hydroxychloroquine is the standard treatment drug used in all cases it's not contraindicated for, and no drugs is for people who have sufficient other conditions the drugs alone could easily be as deadly as COVID.

These sorts of studies tend to produce very junky, fluky data, because they're not studies at all. They're doctors trying to save lives with whatever they've got. Controlled trials haven't supported this

Now maybe they've found enough contraindicators for hydroxychloroquine use that they can get useful results out of it while dodging enough of the cardiovascular risks that they're not killing as many people as they're saving (why hydroxychloroquine wasn't used very much in the first place). But this isn't actually good data of that.

The best thing they've got going is the patient pairing, but that sort of pairing isn't always good. You can go with age/weight/medical history/gender/blood type/etc. pairings, but those sorts of pairings leave a lot of other things floating (unreported medical issues, unreported drug use, undiagnosed medical issues, DNA factors you don't know/haven't accounted for, risk factors you haven't accounted for) that you kind of hope aren't skewing things too badly.

The last retrospective analysis in the Lancet was withdrawn for these sorts of issues (it showed no benefit by the way). This isn't the Lancet. We'll see how it holds up over time.

-------------------------------------------

I really don't understand why the statement "the president should not be dispensing medical advice" is at all a controversial statement by the way. He directly killed someone with that advice. Sure, you can say "they were idiots", but that's why doctors don't just jump up and start rattling off chemicals to take. The FDA's advice still stands:

https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-cautions-against-use-hydroxychloroquine-or-chloroquine-covid-19-outside-hospital-setting-or

Whether or not it helps, what Trump did was dangerously irresponsible, got someone killed, and was fucking idiotic. Which is par for the course (not that Trump can make par without cheating, of course)

[Darth Wedgius]

Hydroxychloroquine could save up to 100,000 lives if used for COVID-19: Yale epidemiology professor

https://www.foxnews.com/media/hydroxychloroquine-could-save-lives-ingraham-yale-professor

Absolutely nobody would be disappointed by this news, I'm sure.

The last time one of these studies came out this way, it was a retrospective observational as well. As hydroclorinique is not proscribed for people with cardiac risk failures, and cardiac risk factors are also risk factors for COVID death, these results are very sketchy. For instance, look at the raw numbers:

• hydroxychloroquine alone: 13.5% (1202 patients)
• azithromycin alone: 22.4% (147 patients)
• hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin: 20.1% (783 patients)
• No drugs: 26.4% (409 patients)

This isn't a randomized trial. You can see Azithromycin is saved for severely ill patients (it's risky), hydroxychloroquine is the standard treatment drug used in all cases it's not contraindicated for, and no drugs is for people who have sufficient other conditions the drugs alone could easily be as deadly as COVID.

These sorts of studies tend to produce very junky, fluky data, because they're not studies at all. They're doctors trying to save lives with whatever they've got. Controlled trials haven't supported this

Now maybe they've found enough contraindicators for hydroxychloroquine use that they can get useful results out of it while dodging enough of the cardiovascular risks that they're not killing as many people as they're saving (why hydroxychloroquine wasn't used very much in the first place). But this isn't actually good data of that.

The best thing they've got going is the patient pairing, but that sort of pairing isn't always good. You can go with age/weight/medical history/gender/blood type/etc. pairings, but those sorts of pairings leave a lot of other things floating (unreported medical issues, unreported drug use, undiagnosed medical issues, DNA factors you don't know/haven't accounted for, risk factors you haven't accounted for) that you kind of hope aren't skewing things too badly.

The last retrospective analysis in the Lancet was withdrawn for these sorts of issues (it showed no benefit by the way). This isn't the Lancet. We'll see how it holds up over time.

-------------------------------------------

I really don't understand why the statement "the president should not be dispensing medical advice" is at all a controversial statement by the way. He directly killed someone with that advice. Sure, you can say "they were idiots", but that's why doctors don't just jump up and start rattling off chemicals to take. The FDA's advice still stands:

https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-cautions-against-use-hydroxychloroquine-or-chloroquine-covid-19-outside-hospital-setting-or

Whether or not it helps, what Trump did was dangerously irresponsible, got someone killed, and was fucking idiotic. Which is par for the course (not that Trump can make par without cheating, of course)

He never advised people to take it. He never advised people to take fish tank cleaner because it contained the stuff. If someone hears that they need to drink lots of water, and they die of water intoxication, that doesn't mean people can't advise to drink enough water. Can someone say "make sure to get enough iron in your diet" without being blamed for someone eating nails?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2020/05/22/all-the-times-trump-promoted-hydroxychloroquine/#623256974643

Now it's true that hydroxychloroquine can kill people, but it's rare. It's "relatively well tolerated."

[GreyICE]

He never advised people to take it. He never advised people to take fish tank cleaner because it contained the stuff. If someone hears that they need to drink lots of water, and they die of water intoxication, that doesn't mean people can't advise to drink enough water. Can someone say "make sure to get enough iron in your diet" without being blamed for someone eating nails?

If there is currently a global crisis related to a disease which causes lack of iron and extremely limited information that's causing widespread uncertainty and panic, it is indeed irresponsible to get up there and go "Now iron, I heard that a lot of old nails are iron, they look rusty, and doctors tell me that rust is the same thing as the iron in your blood. Yes, they're going to see amazing things out of those rusty nails, amazing things, maybe all we need is good ol' rusty nails and this will be solved" then yes, I'd say there's some direct causal link when someone goes and sucks on rusty nails and dies of Tetanus. Even if it later turns out that sucking on properly sterilized rusty iron does indeed help with the disease.

Trump promoted chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine in a way that was completely irresponsible. There's a reason doctors don't do that.

[Darth Wedgius]

He never advised people to take it. He never advised people to take fish tank cleaner because it contained the stuff. If someone hears that they need to drink lots of water, and they die of water intoxication, that doesn't mean people can't advise to drink enough water. Can someone say "make sure to get enough iron in your diet" without being blamed for someone eating nails?

If there is currently a global crisis related to a disease which causes lack of iron and extremely limited information that's causing widespread uncertainty and panic, it is indeed irresponsible to get up there and go "Now iron, I heard that a lot of old nails are iron, they look rusty, and doctors tell me that rust is the same thing as the iron in your blood. Yes, they're going to see amazing things out of those rusty nails, amazing things, maybe all we need is good ol' rusty nails and this will be solved" then yes, I'd say there's some direct causal link when someone goes and sucks on rusty nails and dies of Tetanus. Even if it later turns out that sucking on properly sterilized rusty iron does indeed help with the disease.

Trump promoted chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine in a way that was completely irresponsible. There's a reason doctors don't do that.

That's nuts. He said it looked promising, and he wanted it looked into. Karen Whitsett, a Democratic lawmaker who was smart enough not to drink fish tank cleaner, credited Trump with saving her life (and got censured for saying something positive about Trump).

Isn't a president supposed to offer some hope during a crisis?

[Darth Wedgius]

A Democratic New York City Councilman says hydroxychloroquine saved his life after a near-fatal run-in with COVID-19 in March.

Paul Vallone, who represents northeast Queens, took the drug along with a standard Z-pack — given for bacterial infections — and came back from the brink almost immediately.

https://nypost.com/2020/08/08/nyc-councilman-credits-hydroxychloroquine-for-covid-19-recovery/

No word on whether or not the Democratic party will censure him, too.

[GreyICE]

...

Darth if you're down to personal testimonials for your medical advice, then you better get started on the crystal healing, because at least a dozen people will tell you magic crystals cured their cancer.

It's truly sad how badly you need Trump to be right about everything. It's like watching a cult member try to explain how glorious leader can truly be the chosen of God.

[Darth Wedgius]

...

Darth if you're down to personal testimonials for your medical advice, then you better get started on the crystal healing, because at least a dozen people will tell you magic crystals cured their cancer.

It's truly sad how badly you need Trump to be right about everything. It's like watching a cult member try to explain how glorious leader can truly be the chosen of God.

I don't need Trump to be right about everything. I've found something I think he was irrationally criticized for, with people hoping the treatment would kill him, and I'm pointing out some information in favor of the treatment.

Again, an NPC reacting to the fantasy world he wished he were in, where he's a brave crusader instead of an authoritarian bigot.