Alabama bans abortion

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Darth Wedgius
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Re: Alabama bans abortion

Post by Darth Wedgius »

Yukaphile wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 6:46 pm No, because of the end result. That's not positive, that makes them misguided extremists.

That's irrelevant. A coma patient is already here, is born. They won't put trauma on another person's body. We're talking civil rights and body autonomy here.
That's still a positive. That it might have a down side doesn't remove the positivity of the positive.

And saying that a coma patient is different because they're born is just returning to the assumption that the unborn have no rights because they are unborn. And bodily autonomy has me back to punching people, doesn't it?
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Re: Alabama bans abortion

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And you're not listening to others here who have raised spotlight on the fact they are, at best, out of touch. Even if you don't wanna speculate to their motives, it's going to force young teenage and adolescent and prepubescent girls to carry babies to term, even if they were raped by an uncle. That's no positive, though they may be deluding themselves into thinking they're great heroes. The Nazis thought they were heroes as they murdered millions of people en masse. The Soviets thought they were heroes who were "entitled" to spoils of war as they raped millions. How is this positive? That's more than a downside, that is systematic oppression of the female body by the state. Fact.

They have no rights. The parent's body supersedes that. Any "right" they have is abstract in the sense that they have potential, but you never know if that child will turn out good or bad, yes? And forcing women to carry babies to term will ensure they are not raised in a healthy environment, if they don't give them up for adoption, of course.
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Re: Alabama bans abortion

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It's an understandable motivation. I wouldn't call it good due to that being by definition a redeeming attribute, while passively neglecting a subset of society developing terminal illnesses until it impacts your own self interest isn't really permissible in neither government nor moral standing.
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Re: Alabama bans abortion

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Darth Wedgius wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 6:41 pm
Yukaphile wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 5:47 pm And you make assumptions too, assuming the bill has positives, that it isn't all negative. Unless you're suggesting state Democrats compromised with them? Which is possible. I'm also not "bewailing the supposed motives of people," I just think this is a huge step backwards and whatever tiny costs we might have theoretically gained are going to be drowned out by all the bad it unleashes. Even if you wanna argue their motives aren't bad, the end result will lead to a worse world, with more people suffering, and a specific type of people among that. I have every right to feel upset about that.

I do. Again, this is depressing, and I'm not even attacking people here, just a mindset I hate that's going to make the world a darker place where more people suffer.

The unborn can't make sentient decisions. The woman, her partner, can. I think the potential for a new child to live should be superseded by the mother who is already here. And her partner, yes. And punching people is not a good comparison. This is about childbirth and pregnancy, people who wanna regulate it, for whatever motives and reasons we wanna debate, and how childbirth is a huge burden and trauma on women. We gotta be more sensitive to that kinda stuff.
The bill has factors that may be positives to the people behind it, protecting what they may see as human lives. That wouldn't be a positive?

And if someone has to be sentient for their life to count, we're in tricky territory. Anyone in a coma is pretty much up for grabs for whatever organs they have would be good for a transplant.
Except it doesn't even have an exemption for non-viable pregnancies, meaning it's deliberately designed to put the safety and welling of living people behind that of people that will never live.
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Re: Alabama bans abortion

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Darth Wedgius wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 6:41 pm The bill has factors that may be positives to the people behind it, protecting what they may see as human lives. That wouldn't be a positive?

And if someone has to be sentient for their life to count, we're in tricky territory. Anyone in a coma is pretty much up for grabs for whatever organs they have would be good for a transplant.
Ah, but now you're conflating two things. *Coma* is not necessarily the same as *Brain Dead*. A coma patient may one day wake up, and so their sentience still exists, but merely suspended. And so the preservation of their life has value.
A brain dead patient, one who's suffered sufficient damage that they'll never recover? I'd argue that it's keeping their body functioning artificially that's cruel. While we assign the dead a certain level of bodily autonomy, and so harvesting them for organs is illegal, if we can say with a high degree of certainty that a) yes they are truly braindead and b) they have consented (or someone with power of attorney can consent in their name) then yes, using their organs to help those in need is a far better fate than keeping their husk breathing.

So while a fundamentalist may consider fetuses as human beings, they're just factually incorrect for any useful definition of personhood. So much so I tend to doubt their sincerity of belief. Which is why intent entered the debate to start with.

Moreover your entire defense is based on a false premise: that we can value the life of a fetus and the person carrying it equally. If we value a fetus as a full human with all attendant rights, then necessarily we place it above the person carrying it: they are forced to assume responsibility for another human life for a minimum period of 9 months, with attendant bodily harm, assuming that their medical costs are fully covered and that someone willing to take full custody of the eventual child is in line at the delivery room.
Neither of which is ever true.
Indeed the degree of responsibility we assign to a birthing parent is so high that, when the parent/child relationship is not entered voluntarily, it easily constitutes a form of slavery.

In order for a fetus and its carrier to hold equal rights, you would have to eliminate the latter role. If, for example, artificial out-of-body wombs existed, then yes, a fetus could be assigned personhood without necessarily diminishing the rights of another person. But considering we're probably a century or two away from that technological leap, and even in that far off time it is intensely unlikely that such a procedure would be affordable and widespread, basing law on that scenario is foolhardy.
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Re: Alabama bans abortion

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Yeah, people who think that are either extremely ignorant, like literally anti-intellectuals who have never read a book, basically on the same level of intelligence as online trolls, or just... wanna control women. Is that so hard to believe, though? Men have been thought of as the leaders for centuries. I do think some of these people either have childhood issues they are not dealing with, have a condescending and patronizing "men know better than women" mindset, that they don't know themselves that well, are mentally ill, or just have a fetish in trying to push forced birth on huge populations of women. It's like a kink to them. Yes, there's no evidence, but you don't know. The human mind can be incredibly dark and depraved whenever it comes to sexuality... some rapists will knowingly rape thinking it might result in a child, and that's the point, however disgusting it is to you or I.
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Re: Alabama bans abortion

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If sentience is brought up for consideration, it's pretty clear -- without need to articulate for policy ramification, which should go without explanation -- that one is talking about having yet developed sentience. Not that authorities should make such decisions blindly contingent on anything correlated to sentience.
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Re: Alabama bans abortion

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Well, a fetus or a baby who's just developing, like, at a week or so, is hardly sentient. I wouldn't even call that living, yet.
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Re: Alabama bans abortion

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I would consider a zygote living, but that biological distinction can apply to a slew of things that we kill without any consideration.

Humanity, the mind, consciousness, these are things that develop and which people try to define in terms of some key difference, illustrating some discrete property or trait that very clearly makes distinct an enlightened human from the nearest non-homo primate.

So since babies are humans then they must also have this discrete property. Right? Religion sure does say so.
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Re: Alabama bans abortion

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"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
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