Another day, another police beating in America

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Madner, the ones responsible are the ones who decided to drop a bomb on children. Any threat that this "makeshift fortress" represents is not a threat comparable to the innocent people they killed. But you apparently decide that destroying property and harming and killing innocent bystanders is evil when rioters do it, but merely a lapse of judgement when police do it.

I think the police should be held to a higher moral standard than random men on the street, not a lower one.

Anyway, here's some more commentary on the looting scenario
https://www.theonion.com/protestors-criticized-for-looting-businesses-without-fo-1843735351

[Captain Crimson]

Eliminate qualified immunity for cops. Make them liable when they overstep their authority. Clarence Thomas and Sonia Sotomayor have both suggested this.

Strictly limit the use of SWAT teams. They should be used only when such force is necessary to defuse an already violent situation; that is, unless police intervene, there is an immediate threat of further loss of life. That's really the only scenario under which you can justify using tactics that have proven over the years to themselves carry a not insignificant risk of taking innocent lives.

That's what this "anti-police" person wants.

Tighter regulations, which I'd be behind. Too many pure-bred anarchists I've talked to on the left just wanna abolish police altogether. Abolish the state. The police are America's gang. Which is hyperbole, because in the few situations I've had to call in the police for disputes, they've conducted themselves well. Are these standard displays of behavior, or are they outliers? I'd say it's in the middle. The issue is the safety nets as a check on police outreach are very lax, so that they're the same as any other people despite their training. And we're all being radicalized, it seems. You have to choose which tribe that you are to swear fealty to, and no others. Dark days.

[GreyICE]

What do you want?

1. End the militarization of the police force. No more no knock tactics, no more riot gear, no more smashing down doors to say hello. No nighttime raids, no shooting through windows, no murdering dogs. Focus on de-escalation.

2. Transparency and oversight. Full civilian oversight boards. Independent prosecutor to bring charges. Full investigations.

3. End the culture of silence. Transparency in all dealings. Cops whose body cameras "malfunction" can be gone. Cops who stand by quietly, go. No one needs them.

4. End qualified immunity being applied to uses of violence (added in 2005). Restrict it behind the 1967 boundaries. No more immunity for acts of violence.

5. Train in methods other than the use of force. Train them that force is a last resort, train them in non-violent methods. The last thing cops need to be doing is reaching for handcuffs, not the first. Train in communication, establishing trust, and openness. And hold them to that.

[Makeshift Python]

What do you want?

1. End the militarization of the police force. No more no knock tactics, no more riot gear, no more smashing down doors to say hello. No nighttime raids, no shooting through windows, no murdering dogs. Focus on de-escalation.

2. Transparency and oversight. Full civilian oversight boards. Independent prosecutor to bring charges. Full investigations.

3. End the culture of silence. Transparency in all dealings. Cops whose body cameras "malfunction" can be gone. Cops who stand by quietly, go. No one needs them.

4. End qualified immunity being applied to uses of violence (added in 2005). Restrict it behind the 1967 boundaries. No more immunity for acts of violence.

5. Train in methods other than the use of force. Train them that force is a last resort, train them in non-violent methods. The last thing cops need to be doing is reaching for handcuffs, not the first. Train in communication, establishing trust, and openness. And hold them to that.

There's a reason most bullies sign up as cops, so that they could legally do what you want to end. It's not about serving justice, it's about power. They're organized to make sure they retain that power through the unions and politicians. This is why they're so brazen in front of cameras, they know they have each other's backs.

[GreyICE]

There's a reason most bullies sign up as cops, so that they could legally do what you want to end. It's not about serving justice, it's about power. They're organized to make sure they retain that power through the unions and politicians. This is why they're so brazen in front of cameras, they know they have each other's backs.

Exactly. Those points would end that. They're nothing radical, they're simply tried and true methods of policing that produce a better society.

Lets enact them. Dissolve the police departments if need be, it's been done and worked.

[Madner Kami]

Madner, the ones responsible are the ones who decided to drop a bomb on children.

I can guarantee you, that none of the people involved decided that. What they decided to do, was to drop a satchel charge onto a makeshift bunker on the top of the building, in order to make it safe for them to approach the house and get to the armed and firing militants inside in order to apprehend them.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

So you got any thoughts on GreyICE's list of demands, Madner?

[Captain Crimson]

So you got any thoughts on GreyICE's list of demands, Madner?

I'd agree with most of the points, except bits and bobs. To that, I will counter-retort.

What do you expect from people charged with a duty who are carrying armed weapons, which demands a certain level of respect to the awesome power they possess? A military mindset is not going to be that far removed from them, and it is buried within all social settings, despite our peaceful veneer. And riot gear and kicking down doors has their place. As to civilian oversight, I'd agree here, but I'd also say that I would prefer an exception for genuine undercover cases, like detectives and the like.

[Madner Kami]

So you got any thoughts on GreyICE's list of demands, Madner?

A good example of you not actually reading or, rather, understanding anything I wrote in either this thread regarding this theme or any other on this board so far. But hey, I'll humour you:

2. Transparency and oversight. Full civilian oversight boards. Independent prosecutor to bring charges. Full investigations.

Every government institution should be held to those principles.

3. End the culture of silence. Transparency in all dealings. Cops whose body cameras "malfunction" can be gone. Cops who stand by quietly, go. No one needs them.

How switching off your camera is a thing in the first place, is beyond me, given the purpose they serve. Courts accepting eye-witness testimony from cops who switched their cameras off, are a joke. I do get why courts do it (prejudices of all kinds aside, there's the obvious co-dependency between police and judges, as neither can do their job without the other, so obviously one doesn't bite the hand one is fed by), but that can be solved by off-loading cases were police misconduct is investigated to specialized institituions which are not a direct part of the regular hierarchy of the current judicial or executive system.

4. End qualified immunity being applied to uses of violence (added in 2005). Restrict it behind the 1967 boundaries. No more immunity for acts of violence.

I'm not versed in the legalese mentioned in this point, but in general, you want your cops to be able to use force, even deadly, in cases where they are in doubt. In a country where pretty much everyone can be armed, this is doubly so, both in order to defend themselves as well as defend the people they are bound to protect from harm. However, proper training in de-escalation, recognition (of arms in particular), a proper vetting process of your aspirants and the things mentioned in 3, should adress this problem, as well as proper investigation and, if necessary, prosecution after the fact.

5. Train in methods other than the use of force. Train them that force is a last resort, train them in non-violent methods. The last thing cops need to be doing is reaching for handcuffs, not the first. Train in communication, establishing trust, and openness. And hold them to that.

Just being nice to each other, goes a long way. If you ask someone to give him your papers and he instinctively reaches for his glove-box and the person in question has not shown any agressive or funky behaviour, then the likelyhood of him reaching for a weapon is almost zero. THings like that shouldn't needed to be taught, but heyho... we in america yo. Hey, radical procedural suggestion: Ask the person where his papers are, before asking to get the papers. Or better yet, ask the person to leave the car and ask for where the papers are and get them yourself. Should solve almost every problem...

1. End the militarization of the police force.

You got military and you got police. Those are two distinct forces. Certainly, where military surplus can be used (e.g. ammunition, certain types of arms, maybe even some technical equipment), trickle-down is acceptable and welcome to reduce the running costs. A sheriff with a Bradley is a no go for obvious reasons though.

No more no knock tactics

No idea what that is.

, no more riot gear

You do need a riot police. For obvious reasons. And since a force that is trained to deal with riots needs to be high on manpower for obvious reasons, you'll likely not want to make it a specialized force. Training regular policemen for riot situations is perfectly sensible and supplying them with the necessary gear an obivous necessity.

no more smashing down doors to say hello.

Lacking context.

No nighttime raids

Same. Why? What's the context? Why shouldn't police be allowed to conduct a raid on, say, a drug-dealers home at night? Am I missing something?

no shooting through windows,

Because ... ?

no murdering dogs.

If the dog is a threat, then off the dog. Simple. Dogs are weapons, in case you missed it. That is, unless you talk about the kind of dog that is barely larger than one's foot.

Focus on de-escalation.

See the myriad of earlier replies of mine.

[Captain Crimson]

Also, while I will never defend police outreach, while I want justice for their victims, at the same time, they're in an extremely dangerous job, and to have untrained civilians who aren't going around shooting other people and staring down death every day judging you, making the news about what monsters you are, showing only the negative sides of a police society, putting down your dead buddies, and from your viewpoint, to be just as likely to engage in mass riots that then cause more damage and deaths without official sanction to nobody but themselves, as we're seeing now, is going to set you into your ways. It is a very hard thing going out into a job where you could be shot or die any day. To be crippled or die. It hardens your mindset. It's not an excuse. It's just reflective of where they end up in the end.