Sfdebris.net

Through the streets of Chemnitz.

German police fired water cannon and used pepper spray in the city of Chemnitz on Monday night as 6,000 far-right demonstrators, some chanting neo-Nazi slogans and giving Hitler salutes, clashed with counter-protesters over the fatal stabbing of a German man.

An Iraqi and a Syrian man in their early 20s have been arrested after a brawl in which the 35-year-old German was stabbed, triggering two days of anti-migrant rallies.
The Saxony state police said there were around 1,500 counter-protesters, vastly outnumbered by far-right demonstrators, many of whom had traveled from other states to Chemnitz.

And this isn't the first demonstration this month...2 weeks ago, a smaller but still significant number marched through Berlin.

Hundreds of anti-Nazi campaigners clashed with far-right activists in Germany marking the anniversary of the suicide of Adolf Hitler's former deputy, Rudolf Hess.

Thousands of police were out in force in Berlin to prevent violence, and at least one officer was injured as stones and bottles were thrown.

Many of the far-right activists hoisted the red, white and black flag of Hitler's Third Reich.

One group carried a sign that proclaimed: "I regret nothing: National Socialists Berlin."

Germany, of course, is often held as the ideal when it comes to dealing with fascism - many on this very forum frequently point to their laws on hate speech and the display of Swastikas and the like as a standard the rest of the world should aspire to. It will be interesting to see if these defenses hold against a tide that seems to be sweeping across the entire European continent.

Well, that's a remarkably good way to get arrested in Germany.

Historically that's true...and to some degree it still is, as Monika Schaefer can attest. And yet the police appear to be allowing people to march holding this flag, which would have been unthinkable just a little while ago. I'm not an expert in German politics, but I can't find any evidence that any of the recent far-right protests have led to substantial arrests. Something has clearly changed.

I suspect the classic German position has become increasingly untenable. Merkel is already having a lot of trouble holding her government together. Susanna Feldman is still fresh in people's minds, and Cologne has never faded. Arresting these protesters would only feed the impression that the German government would rather crack down on native sons than foreign migrants, and that might well be the straw that finally breaks Merkel's back.

Interesting times, that's for sure.

"The majority of people in Germany want an open, cosmopolitan, respectful Germany, where people encounter one another with respect, and it is catastrophic what people can do to one another," Maas said.

"cosmopolitan" They said it not me.

Antiboyscout wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:36 pm "The majority of people in Germany want an open, cosmopolitan, respectful Germany, where people encounter one another with respect, and it is catastrophic what people can do to one another," Maas said.

"cosmopolitan" They said it not me.

Yeah and we know all why you dislike countries being cosmopolitan.

unknownsample wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:23 pm

Antiboyscout wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:36 pm "The majority of people in Germany want an open, cosmopolitan, respectful Germany, where people encounter one another with respect, and it is catastrophic what people can do to one another," Maas said.

"cosmopolitan" They said it not me.

Yeah and we know all why you dislike countries being cosmopolitan.

Yep. The countries start off OK but, before you know it, it's all about diet tips, supposed secrets to better sex, fashion advice, and going on endlessly about celebrities.

Allow me to impart on you all something; something which I imagine a lot of Brexit voters, Trump voters, Le Penn voters, whoever it was that went against Merkel voters among others already know: none of this would have happened if the governments of Europe and America had shown more respect toward the dissenting voices over the last two decades instead of branding them racists and ignoring them. And now here we are, we now live in a world where moderates are moving towards the far extremes because they are the only ones that feel as if they are listening to them.

And no, I am not endorsing a resurgence of the Nazis or any other similar group. I am endorsing the hope that we will one day have a government that listens to the concerns of all of its people before things spiral out of control, because like it or not, those with serious concerns about how our countries are run now number to the point that they can and are influencing elections. These are dangerous times imo, the sorts of times that historians look back on as touchpaper moments.

clearspira wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:06 pm Allow me to impart on you all something; something which I imagine a lot of Brexit voters, Trump voters, Le Penn voters, whoever it was that went against Merkel voters among others already know: none of this would have happened if the governments of Europe and America had shown more respect toward the dissenting voices over the last two decades instead of branding them racists and ignoring them. And now here we are, we now live in a world where moderates are moving towards the far extremes because they are the only ones that feel as if they are listening to them.

And no, I am not endorsing a resurgence of the Nazis or any other similar group. I am endorsing the hope that we will one day have a government that listens to the concerns of all of its people before things spiral out of control, because like it or not, those with serious concerns about how our countries are run now number to the point that they can and are influencing elections. These are dangerous times imo, the sorts of times that historians look back on as touchpaper moments.

By kicking out the forrins.

unknownsample wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:24 pm

clearspira wrote: ↑Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:06 pm Allow me to impart on you all something; something which I imagine a lot of Brexit voters, Trump voters, Le Penn voters, whoever it was that went against Merkel voters among others already know: none of this would have happened if the governments of Europe and America had shown more respect toward the dissenting voices over the last two decades instead of branding them racists and ignoring them. And now here we are, we now live in a world where moderates are moving towards the far extremes because they are the only ones that feel as if they are listening to them.

And no, I am not endorsing a resurgence of the Nazis or any other similar group. I am endorsing the hope that we will one day have a government that listens to the concerns of all of its people before things spiral out of control, because like it or not, those with serious concerns about how our countries are run now number to the point that they can and are influencing elections. These are dangerous times imo, the sorts of times that historians look back on as touchpaper moments.

By kicking out the forrins.

Serious question: Do you want this situation to change? I mean REALLY change not just put a sticking plaster over the problem? Then can the strawman arguments and actually start being more constructive with your dialogue. Because right now, you are exactly the type of enabler that I am talking about.

"Interesting times." "Touchpaper moments." Sometimes I'd like to spend the next 40 years hiding under my bed.

A couple bits to toss onto the pile.

I've seen, more than once, German laws against denying the holocaust used as evidence to deny the holocaust.

Second, Yugoslavia. They got along decently well when there were people with guns insisting that they get along. But it didn't actually solve the problems. When the wall came down, decades-old tensions bubbled up, the term "ethnic cleansing" entered the popular vocabulary, and a lot of blood was spilled until NATO bombing brought a halt to a genocide.

One thing about free speech is that sometimes it allows old wounds (for hurts real or imagined) to drain instead of festering. We can only control what people say openly, and if an authoritarian code is enforced upon someone, are they really likely to be sympathetic to the government-sanctioned POV?

Making possession of an unlicensed mimeograph machine a felony didn't stop the samizdats. If people say stupid things out in the open (and a lot of racial conspiracy theories out there on the left and right are just this side of flat earth on the crazy-meter), at least other people can point out the stupid.