Sfdebris.net

https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-police-officer-fired-for-decorating-offensive-christmas-tree-gets-job-back/572098402/

And this is part of the fucking problem. Police Unions make it entirely impossible to get rid of problem officers.

This is one of the strongest reasons police departments need to be replaced wholesale, rather than simply "reformed". As this proves, getting rid of problem officers is insanely difficult because they have layer after layer of protection for shit that would get you fired five times over from any other job.

Bohnsack had been the subject of at least 12 complaints over the past seven years, including one open case from 2018, according to records maintained by the Office of Police Conduct Review. Though the files aren’t public, none of the complaints resulted in disciplinary action. In 2010, then-chief Tim Dolan reprimanded Bohnsack and another officer for requiring a couple in their 40s to hike up a freeway ramp after their car was impounded, although it’s unclear whether either officer was disciplined.

12 complaints? Racist behavior? Reprimanded by the police chief? Sounds like a perfect fit for the MPD! Can't fire a man for that, can we?

GreyICE wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:37 pm This is one of the strongest reasons PUBLIC SECTOR UNIONS need to be replaced wholesale, rather than simply "reformed". As this proves, getting rid of STATE EMPLOYEES is insanely difficult because they have layer after layer of protection for shit that would get you fired five times over from any other job.

I think that edit makes it more accurate.

Unions in general are why we have don't have five-year-olds working in coal mines and factories aren't allowed to lock you inside to boost productivity. Police Unions are actively opposed to solidarity with any other union of any kind.

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:31 am Unions in general are why we have don't have five-year-olds working in coal mines and factories aren't allowed to lock you inside to boost productivity. Police Unions are actively opposed to solidarity with any other union of any kind.

Public sector unions are different from private sector unions in that private sector unions have to work with management to make certain that their demands are reasonable (because they need to be in tune with the business's need to at least break even or it will fail and they will lose their job). Public sector is different in that the state cannot go out of business.

Besides, the general point here is that you hear horror stories in the public sector about more than just police officers. For example, teachers who are paid exorbitant fees to do nothing because they are considered too dangerous to teach but cannot be fired:

https://nypost.com/2019/11/02/nyc-pays-rubber-room-teacher-six-figures-20-years-after-sex-abuse-claims/

Unless you are arguing to replace the education system wholesale in places like New York City, arguing that we need to replace policing wholesale because unions make it difficult to remove bad cops is ridiculous.

Really, what you need is union reform.

Also, more to the point, his has nothing to do with why you want to "abolish and replace" the police. The real reason is because you want a politically correct police force that does not respond when people are being robbed or having their home invaded, or when people are trying to squat on their yard, but who strongly responds to anyone who defends themselves, or who is accusing of insulting someone from a protected class, or who violates some minor rule on their property.

You want anarcho-tyranny, and need to replace the police force with leftists to get it.

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:31 am Unions in general are why we have don't have five-year-olds working in coal mines and factories aren't allowed to lock you inside to boost productivity. Police Unions are actively opposed to solidarity with any other union of any kind.

Taking the classic union vs management example (always a bit of an oversimplification, but good enough) you need a good balance of power between them, when one side gets too much things go awry (to oversimplify again you either have people expecting to get paid and being shocked at actually having to work versus people expecting employees to work and being shocked at actually having to pay them).

When it's as easy to get rid of racist teachers who preach about white privilege, get back to me on this one.

Darth Wedgius wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:30 pm When it's as easy to get rid of racist teachers who preach about white privilege, get back to me on this one.

"Uh oh, someone is once again pointing out the actions of police departments are indefensible. What can we do to distract, since we have a strict policy of never defending? Uh... teachers something something white privilege! Yeah!"

Sad.

GreyICE wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:50 pm "Uh oh, someone is once again pointing out the actions of police departments are indefensible. What can we do to distract, since we have a strict policy of never defending?

No one disagrees with your statement that this action is indefensible. No one is trying to distract from how bad that particular occurrence was. People are responding to the fact that your conclusion from this was:

GreyICE wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:37 pm This is one of the strongest reasons police departments need to be replaced wholesale, rather than simply "reformed". As this proves, getting rid of problem officers is insanely difficult because they have layer after layer of protection for shit that would get you fired five times over from any other job.

(1) The idea that you can just replace a police department wholesale strikes me as unrealistic, and somewhat based on the idea that the level of social disruption during the transition is no big deal.

(2) You specifically suggested that police officers are more unaccountable than people in other occupations. If we can find other occupations with a similar level of unaccountability, it suggests that conclusions based on the assumption of uniqueness may need to be reconsidered.

First response, you know some people are, and some of them might be on this forum.

Item 1, why not? Camden did it.

G-Man wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:21 pm

GreyICE wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:50 pm "Uh oh, someone is once again pointing out the actions of police departments are indefensible. What can we do to distract, since we have a strict policy of never defending?

No one disagrees with your statement that this action is indefensible. No one is trying to distract from how bad that particular occurrence was.

Of course Darth is. What else do you think he's doing? There's a principle Stormfront developed in the very early days of the web. Never defend - instead equate. Use any attack on their principles by tying it to some other subject, and then using it to say "well that subject is bad. But this [completely different thing] is like that subject, so if you condemn that you have to condemn this."

You can see Darth's post, you can read it, you can tell that's exactly what he was doing. So don't say "no one is doing it" when we can literally read someone doing it a few posts up.

G-Man wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:21 pm(1) The idea that you can just replace a police department wholesale strikes me as unrealistic, and somewhat based on the idea that the level of social disruption during the transition is no big deal.

(2) You specifically suggested that police officers are more unaccountable than people in other occupations. If we can find other occupations with a similar level of unaccountability, it suggests that conclusions based on the assumption of uniqueness may need to be reconsidered.

1) Of course it's a big deal. The fact that the police departments are so far gone that they are planting evidence, that racism is openly accepted, that heads of the police union are white supremacists, that violence is openly encourage, that they have training sessions called "killology", that they are actively working with organizations like the Proud Boys is a very, very big deal. I think it's an enormous deal. Police departments have been abolished before, for various reasons. Camden did it because they couldn't afford their department. Just completely abolished it, and reformed it. Crime actually dropped.

Do I see another way to solve this? No. Hiring practices are entrenched. Senior cops are the problem, senior cops are the ones making the hiring decisions. They're the ones doing the training. Derek Chauvin was a Police Trainer. He was literally training two cops literally during the George Floyd murder. George Floyd's murder was his idea of a training exercise. How many cops do you think Chauvin trained? Do you think he was a good trainer? And why was a constantly issue-prone violent cop like Chauvin used as a trainer anyway? Well, his bosses liked how Chauvin did things. They wanted other cops to be like Derek Chauvin.


2) Don't tell me "no one is doing X" and then do X. That's the laziest shit tactic in the entire world. We're discussing police accountability and police defunding. Are teachers planting evidence? Are teachers shooting people? Are teachers being trained by murderers? No? Good. Lets discuss which police departments are doing that, and which police departments need to be dissolved and reformed wholesale.