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The strongest evidence for alien life - perhaps

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2025 2:57 pm
by clearspira
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c39jj9vkr34o

This is definitely exciting news for those of us on forums such as these. The James Webb telescope has discovered molecules being produced on a nearby planet (only 124 light years which is a skip away by galactic standards) that on Earth are only produced by living organisms.

There is a big BUT here i'm afraid. This is one of those ''scientists say something, journalists say another situations''. The problem is, we only have one sample size for life and that is the Earth. There COULD be other naturally occurring sources of these molecules out there. I want to keep an open mind as much as anyone but this isn't the smoking gun that news outlets are suggesting it is.

We have also been here before and it turned out to be nothing. Excited but we haven't discovered Spock just yet.

Re: The strongest evidence for alien life - perhaps

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2025 3:13 pm
by Nobody700
clearspira wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 2:57 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c39jj9vkr34o

This is definitely exciting news for those of us on forums such as these. The James Webb telescope has discovered molecules being produced on a nearby planet (only 124 light years which is a skip away by galactic standards) that on Earth are only produced by living organisms.

There is a big BUT here i'm afraid. This is one of those ''scientists say something, journalists say another situations''. The problem is, we only have one sample size for life and that is the Earth. There COULD be other naturally occurring sources of these molecules out there. I want to keep an open mind as much as anyone but this isn't the smoking gun that news outlets are suggesting it is.

We have also been here before and it turned out to be nothing. Excited but we haven't discovered Spock just yet.
"Yo, nice to meet you guys, what's your names?"

"ORKS."

"Oh no."

Re: The strongest evidence for alien life - perhaps

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2025 12:23 am
by McAvoy
124 light years might as well be 124,000 or 124 million light years away. Really need to develop FTL to make that distance work.

The best we can do is develop more advanced telescopes which is doable and monitor it.

Re: The strongest evidence for alien life - perhaps

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2025 12:31 am
by Madner Kami
clearspira wrote: Thu Apr 17, 2025 2:57 pm https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c39jj9vkr34o

This is definitely exciting news for those of us on forums such as these. The James Webb telescope has discovered molecules being produced on a nearby planet (only 124 light years which is a skip away by galactic standards) that on Earth are only produced by living organisms.

There is a big BUT here i'm afraid. This is one of those ''scientists say something, journalists say another situations''. The problem is, we only have one sample size for life and that is the Earth. There COULD be other naturally occurring sources of these molecules out there. I want to keep an open mind as much as anyone but this isn't the smoking gun that news outlets are suggesting it is.

We have also been here before and it turned out to be nothing. Excited but we haven't discovered Spock just yet.
It is another case of journalists not knowing what the fuck they are talking about and pumping a minor possibility up to a certainty for the sake of clicks and ad revenue.
First and foremost, we aren't yet certain of the detection of the molecule in question. Yes, we're 99.7% sure it's there, but from a scientist's point of view, the probability needs to be at 99.99999% before it becomes a certainty.
Second the planet in question is about 2.5 times the size of Terra, has a thick hydrogen atmosphere and orbits a red dwarf just barely inside it's "habitable zone". That means, no oxygen and a constant bombardment by heavy radiation, while constantly being on the threshold of a runaway greenhouse effect. We also suspect, that the planet is covered by a liquid water ocean, so there is the distinct possibility of anaerobic life existing safely shielded from radiation by the water layer, akin to the colonies of life existing around Black Smokers here on Earth. However, the production of the bio-marker molecule that was detected, does specifically not coincide with hydrogen-rich environments here on Terra.
And third, the amounts of the molecule found in this study is thousands of times higher than you'd expect to find here on Terra, if it were produced by life.

To sum up: We aren't certain we found it and even if it is there, it's there in amounts that are atypically high for bio-production and if there is life on K2-18b, it very likely wouldn't be of the kind that produces dimethyl-sulfide here on Terra.

And to drive that point home: The primary organisms which produce dimethyl-sulfide here on Earth, is (phyto)plankton, the very kind of life that likely produces more oxygen than forests and is primarilly responsible for the "Oxygen Catastrophe" or the "Great Oxidation Event" or the "Oxygen Holocaust" (called so for good reason). This was the mass extinction event about 2.4 billion years ago that killed off over 80% of the then-current biosphere, which almost solely consisted of anaerobic life. It is easy to forget, how agressively reactive and corrosive free oxygen molecules are, because it's so mundane to us, even being the basis of our very existence, but this free oxygen is antithetical to a biosphere like the one you would expect to exist on K2-18b (yes, we live on a Death World). To produce the amounts of dimethyl-sulfide presumably observed on K2-18b (compared to Terra's production), you'd have to postulate a biosphere that is heavy and I mean HEAVY on oxygen production to a degree, that is several magnitudes beyond what happened during the Oxygen Catastrophe and you'd see that reflected in the atmosphere of the planet, because you could expect oxygen-concentrations beyond 30-40% within the atmosphere, something which isn't exactly congruent with an atmosphere that consists almost solely of hydrogen for obvious reasons (H2 + O = H2O = loads of rain = no H2 in the atmosphere in appreciable amounts...). So, if there's life on K2-18b, it's nothing like we know it from here, but we're using a molecule as a marker that is only typical for life as we know it from here. There's an obvious breaking point in that logic. Not impossible, but rather unlikely.

Re: The strongest evidence for alien life - perhaps

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2025 1:53 am
by BridgeConsoleMasher
If they're trapped under radiation then it sounds like they might need our help.

Re: The strongest evidence for alien life - perhaps

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2025 1:57 am
by McAvoy
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Fri Apr 18, 2025 1:53 am If they're trapped under radiation then it sounds like they might need our help.
Sure. Tell them we will be there in about 200,000 years give or take a thousand.

Re: The strongest evidence for alien life - perhaps

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2025 3:48 am
by BridgeConsoleMasher
McAvoy wrote: Fri Apr 18, 2025 1:57 am
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Fri Apr 18, 2025 1:53 am If they're trapped under radiation then it sounds like they might need our help.
Sure. Tell them we will be there in about 200,000 years give or take a thousand.
What matters is if we're too late.

Re: The strongest evidence for alien life - perhaps

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2025 10:08 am
by Madner Kami
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Fri Apr 18, 2025 1:53 am If they're trapped under radiation then it sounds like they might need our help.
Presumed life on K2-18b doesn't need to worry about the radiation itself. It has existed under these circumstances (by earthly comparison) for presumably almost as long as the planet itself had been around (remember, life on Earth practically definitly started even before all the Earth's crust had become solid, along an event that is called the Late Heavy Bombardement, an event that was caused basically by all the planets in our solar system wandering around for several houndred million years, before they settled into their current orbits)*. If life survived the radiation exposure on K2-18b until today, then that means it has adapted to the radiation. It will be as natural to them, as living with a highly corrosive and extremely reactive molecule like oxygen is to us.

What they need to worry about though is, their distinct lack of oxygen. Due to oxygen being readily available to us, it doesn't even occure to us, how reliant our technologies are on it's existence. No oxygen means no fire, no fire means no artificial warmth and source of potent and controlable energy, means no higher technology beyond simple stone tools at most. Heck, they wouldn't even know how to cook food, because they wouldn't be able to create a fire, as not even a lightning strike could randomly create one, due to the absences of oxygen.
Although imagining what is going to happen when lightning strikes in a hydrogen-rich atmosphere that somehow ends up with a localized oxygen surplus is kinda something I'd like to see, because water-rain and instant cloud-formation as a result of a violent exothermal runaway reaction in a giant fireball should kinda be a sight to behold once in your life (though, security reminder: experiencing that event in person will be your terminal sight to behold).

Worse yet, no oxygen also means no highly potent source of energy on a cellular level. It's borderline impossible to imagine a complex multicellular life-form without mitochondria or a comparable specialized organism producing an excess of energy for whatever other organism joined into a symbiosis with it, beyond a fungi (at the most complex).

*It needs to be emphasized, that the earliest traces of life can be found during the Late Heavy Bombardment. That does not mean, however, that life on Earth didn't exist before already. All traces of which would've been eradicated during the Late Heavy Bombardment at latest, but definitly 300 million years earlier, during whatever specifically caused the formation of the moon (which resulted in the definite firey liquidation of anything even remotely solid on Earth before that point in time; even though depending on what exactly caused the formation of the Moon, Earth wasn't technically Earth yet, because what is Earth after the formation of the Moon might very well be the amalgam of two previously distinct celestial bodies).

Re: The strongest evidence for alien life - perhaps

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2025 10:57 am
by clearspira
Madner Kami wrote: Fri Apr 18, 2025 10:08 am
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Fri Apr 18, 2025 1:53 am If they're trapped under radiation then it sounds like they might need our help.
Presumed life on K2-18b doesn't need to worry about the radiation itself. It has existed under these circumstances (by earthly comparison) for presumably almost as long as the planet itself had been around (remember, life on Earth practically definitly started even before all the Earth's crust had become solid, along an event that is called the Late Heavy Bombardement, an event that was caused basically by all the planets in our solar system wandering around for several houndred million years, before they settled into their current orbits)*. If life survived the radiation exposure on K2-18b until today, then that means it has adapted to the radiation. It will be as natural to them, as living with a highly corrosive and extremely reactive molecule like oxygen is to us.

What they need to worry about though is, their distinct lack of oxygen. Due to oxygen being readily available to us, it doesn't even occure to us, how reliant our technologies are on it's existence. No oxygen means no fire, no fire means no artificial warmth and source of potent and controlable energy, means no higher technology beyond simple stone tools at most. Heck, they wouldn't even know how to cook food, because they wouldn't be able to create a fire, as not even a lightning strike could randomly create one, due to the absences of oxygen.

Although imagining what is going to happen when lightning strikes in a hydrogen-rich atmosphere that somehow ends up with a localized oxygen surplus is kinda something I'd like to see, because water-rain and instant cloud-formation as a result of a violent exothermal runaway reaction in a giant fireball should kinda be a sight to behold once in your life (though, security reminder: experiencing that event in person will be your terminal sight to behold).

Worse yet, no oxygen also means no highly potent source of energy on a cellular level. It's borderline impossible to imagine a complex multicellular life-form without mitochondria or a comparable specialized organism producing an excess of energy for whatever other organism joined into a symbiosis with it, beyond a fungi (at the most complex).

*It needs to be emphasized, that the earliest traces of life can be found during the Late Heavy Bombardment. That does not mean, however, that life on Earth didn't exist before already. All traces of which would've been eradicated during the Late Heavy Bombardment at latest, but definitly 300 million years earlier, during whatever specifically caused the formation of the moon (which resulted in the definite firey liquidation of anything even remotely solid on Earth before that point in time; even though depending on what exactly caused the formation of the Moon, Earth wasn't technically Earth yet, because what is Earth after the formation of the Moon might very well be the amalgam of two previously distinct celestial bodies).
I think it is worth noting that whilst ''Its life Jim, but not as we know it'' could certainly be used to explain away some of these problems (we do after all only currently have one sample size as to the formation of life) the laws of physics and nature should remain a relative constant wherever you go in the universe. There could for example be a gas out there that we do not know of that has similar properties to oxygen but it would also have to be rare enough that it would require completely unknown processes. Such a race would be confined to their own planet forever unless they were able to mass-produce an artificial substitute.

Where things become interesting imo would be the presence of AI and self-replicating machines. They could live pretty much anywhere and travel far further distances without FTL than we ever could. I would go as far as to say that actual first contact if it ever happens will not be with organic life due to just how fragile we are when it comes to deep space travel. We require too many resources, we have too many needs, and we do not live long enough.

Re: The strongest evidence for alien life - perhaps

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2025 9:35 pm
by McAvoy
Even if we were able to send a ship filled with AI controlled robots at near light speed, it would still take 124+ years to get there. We would have to seriously mature our AI and robotics to last that long. Able to repair themselves or build new bodies during that time.

That is still a long time for even a robot to last that long without some sort of malfunction of some kind.

The we would wait another 124+ years to get a signal from them if there is life or something else.

I suppose we would at least do baby steps like sending a ship to Alpha Centuri. That would only be 4-5 years.