I am terrified

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

I still can't believe this.

This is a day no worse than any other this year, with news no more dire than any other news report, but somehow it really managed to cut me to the core.

Every time I hear the phrase "President Trump" on the news, I flinch, reminded of a painful, unreal aspect of reality.

Nazis and KKK members championed his election. Nazi and KKK members march in force with guns and flame in the first years of his presidency. Nazis and KKK members are put by him on equal moral standing with a mutli-faith coalition of peaceful protester and the people protecting those peaceful protesters.

Scandals happen so frequently and so rapidly that there must be an outbreak of carpal tunnel syndrome and sleep deprivation among satirists. We are becoming numb to them.

Every standard of decency, every best practice of government, the things that we didn't even bother to write down in the rules because nobody could be that shameless or incompetent, are getting broken.

He gets away with the things that no other president would even dare to attempt.


And then there's the optimism. The people who reassure me. Who say "this will sink his presidency", who say "It's only a matter of time," who say "he won't last long."

No. You're wrong. You were the same people who said "this ass clown will never win the primary", who said "this man will never win the election".

...nothing can poison his reputation, because his entire reputation IS poison.

People who say "we made it through Reagan"...well first, we DIDN'T make it through Reagan. So many of US didn't make it through Reagan, that die-in wasn't a term for lying down and closing your eyes to illustrate a point graphically, it was when you knew you were vulture-food anyway and you handcuffed yourself to a public building so that your stinking corpse could stand as a political statement.

But he scares me MORE than Reagan, than Nixon, more than Andrew "$20 genocide" Jackson, more than Bush. I am fucking NOSTALGIC for Bush, back when at least there was enough time for the Daily Show's jokes to grow stale, when the caricaturists could finish a political cartoon before the appointee they were drawing it of was fired.


This is something the likes of which we have NEVER seen before. That's it. I have no well-crafted debate point, no hot button issue, no coherent thesis. This is my naked horror and dread, in written form.

And I am terrified.

[The Romulan Republic]

We are in a very dangerous and concerning situation, but declaring, effectively, that it is impossible to defeat Trump, and that anyone who says we can is a fool, is not helpful. All it will do is either encourage defeatism and acceptance of fascism, replacing opposition with apathy; or else convince people that the only recourse is violence, and effectively hit the gas in driving America towards greater domestic violence and possibly even civil war and/or dissolution.

I do agree that attacking Trump's reputation in and of itself is not a winning strategy, though. Partly because its obvious what a piece of shit he is, and anyone who was going to ditch him for that likely already has. And partly because he contradicts himself so much that its hard to mount a coherent argument against him, other than to point out that he's a liar (And I fully believe that this is at least in part a deliberate tactic on Trump's part as well, and one that from everything I've heard is right out of Putin's playbook).

I think we do need to keep calling out Trump, as a matter of principle and to ensure that the truth is not obscured, but we also need to focus more on providing a positive alternative. One of the biggest criticisms of the Democrats (unfair and overstated though I personally think it is) is that we campaigned too heavily on just being "not Trump" or "not Republicans", without giving people something to vote for. In that sense, I think that Bernie Sander's universal Medicare bill, and the support of many Democratic Senators for it (including several likely 2020 Presidential candidates) may provide us a desperately needed rallying point to built enthusiasm and shore up progressives support. I do think health care has the potential to be our winning issue, or one of them (their are other topics we can't neglect)- the emerging public and political about-face on the issue since the Tea Party rose in 2010 is striking.

Beyond that, there is hope for the Muller investigation uncovering solid proof of major felonies by Trump, and I have been encouraged repeatedly by the actions of the Federal Judiciary in shooting down Trump's more dangerous ideas. Just today, I read that the courts ruled in favour of Chicago's right to be a "sanctuary city" and not cooperate with Trump's anti-immigrant efforts (of course, I expect the same Right-wingers who champion "states' rights" against the Federal government will condemn this as "judicial activism", because the only "states' rights" they really care about are the ones that benefit their agenda- just like the Confederacy they admire).

We'll see what happens in 2018. If enough seats swing in Congress, and Muller can prove something really damning, we might get an impeachment. That would at least partially restore democratic norms, and prevent Trump from doing further damage.

Of course, their will still be the extremist base that supported him. We will have to contend with that threat for a long time. That will likely be a multi-generational struggle. But its the same struggle we've been fighting all through our history, ever since we were a slave nation. And, on the whole, its a fight we've been winning. Slowly, and at great cost, but we can win it.

[GandALF]

muh evil genius

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh, Trump is smart in certain ways- as I've said before, he has one true skill, and that's being a con man.

But he's also backed by far smarter people. Putin is basically a real-world comic book supervillain, for God's sake.

[Admiral X]

I don't think it's so much that he's smart as his opposition also isn't. Look at the crap people attack him over - it's either exaggerated or made up, or something completely pointless and stupid. To the point now that even legitimate criticism will come off as the boy crying wolf. There's plenty to criticize him over, just like there was with the last President, only the shoe was on the other foot there so all anyone would go on about was the birther crap or "secret Muslim."

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't think it's so much that he's smart as his opposition also isn't. Look at the crap people attack him over - it's either exaggerated or made up, or something completely pointless and stupid. To the point now that even legitimate criticism will come off as the boy crying wolf. There's plenty to criticize him over, just like there was with the last President, only the shoe was on the other foot there so all anyone would go on about was the birther crap or "secret Muslim."

You Rightists just love to play that card, don't you? "But Obama/Clinton/the Democrats are just as bad!" And the damned thing is, it works, because "both sides are just as bad" is a seductive argument to frustrated and angry people, as well as the cynical- all the more so because it has the superficial veneer of sounding fair and non-partisan, if you don't put any real thought into it. Its a lazy and objectively false argument, but it sounds true to people who are frustrated with our political status quo.

But, no, they're not the same, and they're not equivalent. Show me the tape of Obama boasting about groping women.* Show me the emails where top campaign surrogates of Obama's arranged to meet with Russians to get dirt on McCain and Romney. Show me where Obama incited violence against protesters at campaign rallies, or where he said that a judge was unfit to serve because of his heritage, or where he, by his own admission, fired the head of a government agency because of an investigation into his administration. None of these things are exaggerated or even speculative about Donald Trump. They are matters of public record.

If you are going to pretend that all of the allegations against Trump are of equal absurdity to the birther lies, or that the wildest theories about Trump are equivalent to matters of public record, you are either utterly dishonest, or completely incapable of weighing the validity of the evidence for one allegation relative to another.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the continual insistence that "Both sides are the same/both sides are just as bad", which is employed as an automatic dismissal or justification for any accusation, is the greatest, most pervasive, and most dangerous political lie of our time. One that has served to normalize an admitted sexual predator and blatant racist as a mainstream politician, seen literal Neo-Nazism put on a morally equal footing to Left-wing activists who oppose it by the President of the United States, and helped to nurture generations full of voters who are mired in apathy, have no regard for democratic institutions, and are frequently incapable of nuanced analysis or discerning judgement.

This crap is also why I referred previously to your arguments as "moral myopia", and will continue to do so. Because whatever Trump or his cronies do, you seem incapable of making more nuanced judgements than variations on "But the Democrats are just as bad."

Edit: *If Obama, as a black man, had been caught on tape boasting about groping women, I guarantee that the Right would have bombarded us endlessly with thinly-veiled innuendo about black sexual predators coming to rape our white women, and Obama's campaign would have gone down in flames. Granted, he would have deserved to lose if he had done that, just like Trump, albeit not for such racist reasons.

[Admiral X]

You Rightists just love to play that card, don't you?

I actually lean slightly to the left, but whatever.

"But Obama/Clinton/the Democrats are just as bad!"

That isn't what I said. I actually compared what you and others on the more extreme left are doing with Trump to what those on the more extreme right did to Obama, which was to try to make him into a boogeyman using some of the most absurd arguments possible. The shoe is on the other foot now, and that's all there is to it.

[The Romulan Republic]

You Rightists just love to play that card, don't you?

I actually lean slightly to the left, but whatever.

You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Seriously, tell me, in what ways could you be considered Left? Because I don't see it. What I do see is you constantly posting to try to defend or downplay the latest horrible thing Trump and the Alt. Right have done.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

That isn't what I said.

Maybe not in those exact words, but it seems to me that the underlying argument is the same: deflect criticisms of the Right by accusing people on the Left of equivalent flaws, regardless of weather that's the case or not.

And you are treating the accusations against Trump as equally ludicrous to the accusations against Obama, when this is not generally the case. And that does imply a certain equation of Trump and Obama, if you find the accusations against them comparably ridiculous.

I actually compared what you and others on the more extreme left are doing with Trump to what those on the more extreme right did to Obama, which was to try to make him into a boogeyman using some of the most absurd arguments possible. The shoe is on the other foot now, and that's all there is to it

Except you'd have to dig pretty deep into the conspiracy theorist fringe (which was always more of a Right-wing than a Left-wing thing anyway) to get a Left-wing allegation against Trump as absurd as the Birther/Secret Muslim lie. Birtherism was objectively false, easily disproven, and publicly disproven repeatedly. And also transparently racist, a way of basically saying "a black man can't be a real American/legitimate President" without quite admitting it.

So, what accusations do you feel I personally, or the mainstream Left in general, have made against Trump that are comparably questionable? I'll admit sometimes speculation has gone a bit too far. But I can't think of any common accusation that is as transparently and provably ludicrous and offensive.

I guess there are Left-wingers who believe 9/11 Trutherism, but that's not really anything to do with Donald, and has supporters on both the Left and Right.

[LittleRaven]

I have to admit that Louise Mensch is getting pretty far out there these days. But I still don't think it's fair to equate the two sides. Are there a few leftie loonies that honestly believe that Jason Chaffetz was paid off by the Russians to ignore warning signs on the election, or that there's a secret New York grand jury that's about to crack Trump's money laundering scheme wide open? Well, probably. There's 330 million people in this country. It's a decent bet that a few thousand buy into any random bit of nonsense at a time.

But to the extent that there IS a sense of conspiracy on the left, it mostly manifests as...well, as this thread. A vague sense that there is something fundamentally WRONG going on. A deep, pervasive wrongness perpetrated by larger forces that requires immediate action. Personally, I think that's rather overblown, but honestly that's as bad as it really gets. This is in sharp contrast to what we see from the right, where a terrifying large percentage of Republicans voters honestly believe things that are easily demonstrably as factually wrong.

Of course, this is largely intentional. Certain players on the Right basically decided to weaponize their conspiracy theorists, and it has proven very successful at getting certain types of Republicans elected. But the Republican Party and the US government as a whole are paying a terrible price for this success, and it is not a tactic the Left has really embraced yet.

[Admiral X]

You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Could say the same about you when it comes to calling people "Rightists."

Seriously, tell me, in what ways could you be considered Left?

Aside from being very egalitarian and secularist?

Because I don't see it.

Ideological blinders will do that.

What I do see is you constantly posting to try to defend or downplay the latest horrible thing Trump and the Alt. Right have done.

Like what?

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

Maybe not in those exact words, but it seems to me that the underlying argument is the same: deflect criticisms of the Right by accusing people on the Left of equivalent flaws, regardless of weather that's the case or not.

Are you not reading what I actually post, or is what I'm posting going some kind of weird filter that spits out something completely different for you? It's almost like you just plain aren't reading and are making assumptions based on your apparent perception of me as one of those evil conservatives or something.

And you are treating the accusations against Trump as equally ludicrous to the accusations against Obama, when this is not generally the case. And that does imply a certain equation of Trump and Obama, if you find the accusations against them comparably ridiculous.

Because they are.

Except you'd have to dig pretty deep into the conspiracy theorist fringe (which was always more of a Right-wing than a Left-wing thing anyway) to get a Left-wing allegation against Trump as absurd as the Birther/Secret Muslim lie. Birtherism was objectively false, easily disproven, and publicly disproven repeatedly. And also transparently racist, a way of basically saying "a black man can't be a real American/legitimate President" without quite admitting it.

Funny thing is it was started by opposition within his own party during his 2008 campaign.

So, what accusations do you feel I personally, or the mainstream Left in general, have made against Trump that are comparably questionable? I'll admit sometimes speculation has gone a bit too far. But I can't think of any common accusation that is as transparently and provably ludicrous and offensive.

Well there's that whole constantly accusing him of being a Nazi crap. Honestly, though, the OP speaks for itself. It makes me think of people freaking out over how Obama was going to make this a communist country and come take all our guns.

I guess there are Left-wingers who believe 9/11 Trutherism, but that's not really anything to do with Donald, and has supporters on both the Left and Right.

Well Dubya is one of those evil Republicans, after all.