Sfdebris.net

So, the people of Catalan voted for independence from Spain. Spain says the referendum was illegal. Spain tried to stop this process by using the police to break up polling stations.

I don't know that much about this particular conflict, but I'm initially inclined to side with the Catalan Independence just because using police force (including a lot of brutality) to stop people from voting on a referendum, however illegal it may be, doesn't seem like the actions of the good guys.

Keeping people from doing illegal things, is kind of the job of any at least semi-decent police-force.

Well for context: Spain was a under a para-fascist dictatorship until 1975 when the King restored parliamentary democracy. Because of this history Catalan nationalists often lob hyperbolic accusations of fascism at Madrid (regardless of whether or not they are acting constitutionally). So the police brutality is playing into to the hands of the nationalists.

It was a bit of a lose-lose situation, though. Allow the poll to go ahead and it gains a sort of legitimacy in the eyes of Catalans, regardless of its legality. Send in the troops to stop it and you end up with footage of the military beating on civilians for voting. This will become an ugly issue.

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote:So, the people of Catalan voted for independence from Spain. Spain says the referendum was illegal. Spain tried to stop this process by using the police to break up polling stations.

I don't know that much about this particular conflict, but I'm initially inclined to side with the Catalan Independence just because using police force (including a lot of brutality) to stop people from voting on a referendum, however illegal it may be, doesn't seem like the actions of the good guys.

I'm leaning that way as well they should at least be able to hold the referendum fairly. I don't know if the referendum would actually pass but if they vote to govern themselves I'm inclined to allow them to do so. Like for example the Iraqi Kurds trying to set up their own nation and break away from Iraq - sometimes good fences make good neighbors.

Madner Kami wrote:Keeping people from doing illegal things, is kind of the job of any at least semi-decent police-force.

That is empty words. Legality, in and of itself, has no moral weight. When you have police attacking little old ladies and dragging families away from the polls, that looks pretty evil to me.

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote:So, the people of Catalan voted for independence from Spain. Spain says the referendum was illegal. Spain tried to stop this process by using the police to break up polling stations.

I am very skeptical of taking the vote at face value. Because prior to the vote, the number I read was 40% in favour of leaving (apparently 60% in favour of having the vote), but when the (illegal) vote was held, the separatists claimed a 90% win, which strikes me as the kind of numbers you tend to get in an "election" where the result was decided in advance.

Its notable that their are now demonstrations by Catalans who don't want to leave, as well. This is not a clear-cut issue of Catalan supporting independence, from everything I've read on the matter.

I don't know that much about this particular conflict, but I'm initially inclined to side with the Catalan Independence just because using police force (including a lot of brutality) to stop people from voting on a referendum, however illegal it may be, doesn't seem like the actions of the good guys.

The government's response is heavy-handed and stupidly counter-productive, but one cannot ignore the fact that prior to any such response occurring, the Catalan separatists were blatantly defying the courts, and reportedly threatening local officials into compliance.

If a radical minority attempts to secede unilaterally and illegally, and backs it up with threats... does not the government have both the right and the obligation to uphold the law?

But... idiots and assholes on both sides on this one.

Honestly, I think the poor turnout has more to do with Spanish courts declaring the referendum illegal and a subsequent boycott by the No side.

Well, I suppose that might explain it.

Either way, though, its pretty clearly not reflective of the actual opinion of the Catalonian people, or at least not definitively so.

Spain achieved its goal of preventing Catalonia from obtaining a clear result from the point of view of simple algebra. If you proceed to statistical methods, this argument is much less convincing.

In an unbiased sample, the results of a sample of 42% of a population would be within fractions of a percentage point of true. Assuming that the other 58% were all unionists, or that the Catalans dishonestly counted the votes, is certainly what Spain wants to believe - or at least make ambiguous enough that you get bogged down in discussing that rather than its offensive tactics to suppress free expression.

Declaring a vote to be nonbinding and saying it will be ignored is one thing. Declaring the vote to be illegal and rounding people up is quite another. If sovereignty is supposed to be popular sovereignty that derives from the consent of the governed, then Spain has totally undermined its own legitimacy by instead conducting itself in accordance with an imposed, top-down sovereignty.

Without a willingness from either side to negotiate and accept Catalan autonomy within a federated Spain, then Catalonia has just one card to play, and that is to proceed with unilateral independence.

Europe has a responsibility to intervene, but the EU itself is backed into a corner. It is possible that secondary institutions could still step in. The Council of Europe has been cited as a means to facilitate diplomatic communications. Or Catalonia could be reassured of a slow burn against Spain that starts winding its way through the European Court of Human Rights, the probability of a huge penalty on Spain for repressing a regional minority could force everyone back to talks.