Star Trek: Strange new worlds

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I don't think there was as much of a stark contrast between the initial and later seasons of both Voyager and DS9. The problems with the first seasons of TNG seem consistent with the problems of TMP where there is this bittersweet mix of production vamping and plot staleness.

And the appreciation of plot material for TNG isn't really right out the door for season 3. It picks up slowly with mythology elements here and there and then gets to run with them in season 4.

[Mindworm]

Voyager, as good as TNG? Maybe the poorer early seasons of TNG, at most.

I said, "Voyager, for instance, certainly wasn't as consistently good as TNG, but when they did hit the right marks it was pretty close."

Generally, Voyager was worse than TNG, often much worse (though I think the worst of Voyager is probably better than much of season 1 TNG), but some of the highlights were nearly as good or in a few cases as good as anything TNG had. For example, Blink of an Eye is probably not quite up there with the best of TNG's "pure sci-fi" corpus, but it's close. Living Witness is probably on the list of the best episodes from any of the series. Bride of Chaotica is absolutely as good as any of TNG's "comic relief" episodes. I actually think that Equinox part 2 is a bit of a let down, but part 1 is strong. I significantly differ with the episode in its conclusion, but Death Wish handles the philosophical debate of the issue about as well as Measure of a Man (the conclusion of which I also don't agree with, at least not entirely). I don't like Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy as much as many people, but it's widely considered quite good. I'd roughly put Message in a Bottle in the same sort of box as episodes like TNG's Timescape or The Next Phase, but better.

I don't think Voyager has anything to compare with Darmok. I don't think it has anything to compare to The Inner Light. Although a lot of people rate Scorpion very highly, I don't think it remotely compares to Best of Both Worlds or Redemption in terms of those really top tier two part episodes.

TNG was better, but Voyager was able to reach average TNG quality sometimes, and in a few cases even to come close to the best of TNG.

You mean the version of Robert Forward's Dragon's Egg* done with no competence and with some of the worst actors they could find? Yeah, that wouldn't fill the top of Season 1 Enterprise, never mind TNG.

I was going to list a couple of examples of the best from season 1 of TNG to compare, but honestly in looking through the list there isn't a single season 1 TNG episode I'd definitively rate better than Blink of an Eye. There are a few where I'd have to really think about it to decide which I think is better, but nothing more than that. I looked through season 2 and I generally similarly. Elementary Dear Data is one of the stronger episodes from season 2 and I can't decide where I'd rate it compared to Blink of an Eye. Most people would easily rate Measure of a Man higher and I'd say it's probably one of two episodes from season 2 (the other being Q Who) which are clearly superior, though I personally don't like Measure of a Man nearly, nearly, nearly as much as the average person. Season 3 TNG is where we start to have some clear winners here but it's also where we start to get into a few examples of the very best of the best from TNG which I already said Blink of an Eye is inferior to.

For season one both Conspiracy and The Arsenal of Freedom are much better, for season two The Measure of a Man and Pen Pals are.

I'd put Blink of an Eye at Shades of Grey territory frankly, especially after reading the book they blatantly stole from.

[Riedquat]

Re: Voyager, I actually have what might be an unpopular opinion because I actually think S1 and 2 are in some ways Voyager's best. Certainly there are some great episodes in the later parts of the series, and there are some things are the later seasons which I would say are definitely better, BUT I think the first two seasons actually best fulfilled the promise of what the show could have been. It was the first two seasons that tried to keep some sense of continuity, not quite serializing it to the level of DS9 but nevertheless having events from one episode matter as time went on. It was the first two seasons that best handled the crew makeup like a persistent reality, having recurring characters that weren't always the main focus but who's personal continuity mattered when they were there. Some people hate the whole Seska/Kazon thing, and while I can't say it's my favorite aspect of the series it's nevertheless something that again makes the series feel alive live and like their predicament actually matters.

That didn't work for me because it never felt like there should be recurring characters who aren't members of the crew. Voyager is moving continually onwards, always passing through and leaving behind. I suppose it's plausible that they'd sometimes hang around in the same area for a bit fo repair, resupply, and research (to the occasionally-mentioned annoyance of some of the crew for the last of those), but it should very much have been an episodic issue of the week show other than in dealing with ship-board issues.

[Frustration]

Oddly, the episode of Voyager that I think was best - and that WOULD hold up in a comparison with, say, TNG, in one that most people dislike: Sacred Ground.

[McAvoy]

I dunno, I'd expect "the average of TNG" to not actually be that formidable. The first two seasons (and to a lesser extent, the seventh) really bring it down. I'd be tempted to give "the average of Voyager" even odds.

Definitely if you include the first two seasons. They really do bring down the average for TNG. But other five seasons certainly bring it up with infinitely better episodes.

IMO, TNG and DS9 both had higher highs, but also lower lows. Voyager isn't as ambitious but is more consistent (the well-known clunkers notwithstanding).

The point I am making is that those five-ish seasons of TNG if looked on their own is on average above Voyager.

Yeah, but that's a rather selective criteria. We could selectively pick out our favorites from Voyager too and bring up its average considerably (and there were, after all, a bunch of quite good eps in there).

Honestly, on which series that had the best first two seasons is a toss up between Voyager and DS9. Though Move Along Home sucks big hairy sweaty donkey balls.

Move Along Home isn't actually that bad. It's goofy, but in kind of a fun way. "If Wishes Were Horses" and that possessed Bashir one were the clunkers from DS9 S1, IMO.

Assuming they don't blow it next year, I'd say Strange New Worlds is pretty much a lock for that crown if they can keep their current momentum going.

Not really that selective. It's not like I am choosing certain episodes from the series of random seasons not in order like 3, 5, and 6. It's well known that the beginning of Season 3 of TNG being a rebirth of the series. The first two seasons being highly constrained and limited in what they could do with the third finally being more open in what they could write.

Hell Frakes growing a beard between Season 2 and 3 corresponding with the improvement of TNG as a whole, made the term Growing the Beard. Opposite of Jumping the Shark.

Yes the other series has their own. DS9 could be S4 with Worf being on board. But for DS9 it wasn't much of a leap. You could argue it began with Season 3 with the Dominion.

With Voyager it was definitely with Seven coming on board and them being pushed 10k light-years away from the species of thd first three seasons.

Riker's beard came between S1 and 2, not 2 and 3. Still, you're right to mention it and I've often seen it mentioned as the definitive tell for whether the episode will be okay/good or terrible. In other words, tune in to a random S1 or 2 episode and see a few seconds and you can't tell the difference by looking at most other things (of course Pulaski would be a give away) but the beard tells you if it's S1 or 2 right away.

Re: Voyager, I actually have what might be an unpopular opinion because I actually think S1 and 2 are in some ways Voyager's best. Certainly there are some great episodes in the later parts of the series, and there are some things are the later seasons which I would say are definitely better, BUT I think the first two seasons actually best fulfilled the promise of what the show could have been. It was the first two seasons that tried to keep some sense of continuity, not quite serializing it to the level of DS9 but nevertheless having events from one episode matter as time went on. It was the first two seasons that best handled the crew makeup like a persistent reality, having recurring characters that weren't always the main focus but who's personal continuity mattered when they were there. Some people hate the whole Seska/Kazon thing, and while I can't say it's my favorite aspect of the series it's nevertheless something that again makes the series feel alive live and like their predicament actually matters. The first few seasons are also the ones in which even when we're not dealing with any kind of continuity the standalone episodes still give the greatest sense of the ship being stranded and cut off from any friends or help or resources. As the series went on, they started to treat things more like it was just business as usual and any kinds of problems they ran into more and more had to be extraordinary or unusual circumstances because the basic everyday reality of being stranded was more and more not pressing enough to create a lot of tension. It got to the point where they started bringing in special circumstances just to make being stranded seem relevant again - e.g., Equinox. It was that first season or two where "hey, we're stranded all alone" felt most like it was a driving force for what was going to happen that episode.

Yeah my mistake on the Riker Beard thing. Can't believe I messed that up.

For me Season 2 is marginally better than Season 1. Like ever so slightly better. Season 3 even ignoring the uniforms just feels different.

I actually like the first two seasons of Voyager. I always had this idea of each season should have a new baddie species as Voyager progresses through the Beta Quadrant. Only have the Borg as that ever persistent unseen threat. No Borg Queen, just Voyager doing its best to stay away from them.

Then again, there was so much that could be done to Voyager that after the past 20+ years since it left the air, it really is beating a dead horse by now.