Superman (2025)

[clearspira]

If heroes were fascists then Captain America wouldn't have rebelled against the Sokovia Accords which by their very definition are far more on the side of fascism than they are on the side of individual liberty. And it gets way, WAY, worse in the comic which is why so many people think that it is one of the worst comics ever made.

Captain America stands for the idealised America, not what the government says is America. Very different things. I cannot imagine Steve Rogers voting for Trump. It is the same thing as ''truth, justice and the American Way.'' Which is MEANT to be shorthand for ''peace, democracy, equality, freedom''. Which certainly meant a lot more when the baddies were actual Nazis.

''Individual liberty'' is actually a far more interesting topic of discussion than fascism anyway because that hits at the core of what it is to work towards a free world away from what governments and corporations think. ''Should a man wearing the Stars and Stripes be allowed the freedom to go to other countries beating people up and arresting them'' is a legitimate question. ''Is vigilantism ever an alternative?'' is a legitimate question.

[CharlesPhipps]

Hitler hated comic books and Pulps both. He thought they were Jewish media.

But also the simple fact is that individuals standing up against the state was the OPPOSITE of what fascists want. They want you to live and die FOR the state. At least once they're in power.

The fascist "hero" is a guy who eagerly runs into the mouth of the dinosaur and never questions orders.

[CharlesPhipps]

The biggest argument against heroes being Fascists is... why isn't every hero a Squadron Supreme, Regime, or Miracleman? Those are EXCEPTIONS, and noted as exceptions, for a reason. Even Black Panther, Aquaman, and Geoforce, actual royalty who rule nations, have fought against Nazis and tend to be pro democracy when their nations become democratic.

As a historian, I do appreciate the handling of Wakanda's shift to democracy despite it being an ugly handling of it. T'Challa turns out to have been the most progression and open minded of the country while his country's democrats are divided between the isolationists who hate immigrants and the just outright corrupt.

It's not a great message for a guy who is of the people and for the people but I have to admit, it's a historically accurate one to several times in history.

[Nealithi]

I pretty sure there is no debate that Batman is actually Bruce Wayne and Bruce Wayne the billionaire is the costume. Plenty of examples in media about that. Whether it's the Animated series or the first Burton movie or Nolin movies.

Superman on the other hand is up for debate on which is the disguise. I have seen both sides written or spoken and they make sense.

Whether like Batman, Superman is Clark Kent or Kal El and Clark Kent the reporter is the disguise. Or Clark Kent is the human or person who grew up with humans and Superman is Kal El of Krypton. Or Superman and Clark Kent is a mix of both where each are not only a disguise but also the actual part of Clark Kent and Superman. Just different traits coming through.

Media tends to trend in either way depending on how they want to portray Superman. Animated Superman tends to blur both Clark Kent and Superman. I think it's where we see him in love action media, where we tend to see exaggerating aspects of Clark Kent. With the exception of Cavill which I have stated before doesn't really make an effort in that department.

Like this new Superman and his Clark Kent is interesting. He really does see like two different people, even more so than Reeve's own portrayal. Them making a point of showing that in the teaser is a good thing.

Just amusing to me how much hair gel or spit he needs to fix his hair either as Superman or Clark Kent.

To throw my nickel to the pile. I think there are three people in the Clark v Superman setup. Superman is who Clark imagines a hero ought to be. Clark Kent the reporter is weak and bumbling so no one bothers him. Then you have Clark Kent the farmer, who relaxes and is just himself. Not over the top heroics, not stumbling to seem non-threatening. Just his relaxed self.
And I think some comics and the DCAU got that right. He is with his parents he is just their son.

[BBally81]

The "superheroes are fascist" argument is one that I disagree with because it implies that individuality enforced against the system is wrong. The problem is that any collectivist viewpoint that ignores individual certainty is worthless. It also equates heroism with fascism, which is fucking dumb.

Heck at his core, Superman began as a very anti-fascist superhero.

[Scififan]

I think Superman has simply changed with the times. Early Superman up to the Silver Age until you get to the reboot in the 80s is the bungling, cowardly, Clark Kent. If you check out Action Comics #1 Clark lets some mobsters push him around and gets Lois angry at him for being a wimp.

Then when we get to the reboot after Crisis on Infinite Earths Ma and Pa Kent are still alive, they died in between Superboy and Superman, and Clark is just a farm boy in the big city.

In the Richard Donner Superman they play the cowardly, weak Clark but by the time you get to Lois and Clark the New Adventures of Superman that Clark is gone. Also like mentioned above Bill is a villain who almost killed the Bride and murdered her groom and everyone at the wedding. Hell, those people at the wedding probably didn't deserve to get killed. He sees Superman as someone superior to everyone else and that Clark Kent was how he,Superman, saw humanity in general. Probably because he saw humanity in that light.