Rebooting Dragon Ball as a Whole

[McAvoy]

I think that there is something very important to bring up here: Toriyama infamously wanted to finish this show multiple times but was continuously enticed back (probably by money - I have no judgement of that though). Depending on the source, one ending point appears to be the end of Namek with Goku becoming the legendary warrior of myth and actually dying on that planet to hand over the reins to Gohan. The next appears to be the end of Cell - again with Goku dying and handing over the reins to Gohan.

This is WHY so much of Dragonball appears to be an asspull because it was. The Vegeta and Bulma relationship? Not intended which is why it comes out of nowhere.The whole Buu saga? Not intended, which is why it comes off as being so different in tone. Multiple Super Saiyan transformations? Not intended.

This is also why there is such a gap between DBZ and DBS. He was done with it. Rumour has it that he came back only because he was so annoyed by GT and DB Evolution mucking up his legacy (which btw does prove what Winter was saying earlier about how there will be a reboot of DBZ eventually because it has already kind of happened).

But there is even more to this story than that. Because not only did he really not want to be there, but there was huge executive meddling. The Androids were originally going to be Dr Gero and Android 20. They were the androids that wiped out the Z fighters. But the editor hated the idea saying ''who wants to follow some old guy'' and so it was changed to Android 17 and 18. Cell was going to be different too and in fact it seems as if he wasn't even going to be a thing originally.

Basically what I am saying is, with the benefit of hindsight as we do, I think that we could reboot the show better than Toriyama originally made it. Not because we are better writers than Toriyama but because Toriyama was faced with so many problems when making it.

I think that this story would have been better served by making Super Saiyan exactly what was originally intended: the end point of the story. By removing transformations and keeping what we had before: incremental power ups thanks to Kaioken or training arcs or divine water, we could have kept the human characters relevant and massively cut down the power creep.

I can answer these. There is no real evidence that he wanted to end the series after Goku becomes SSJ and the defeat of Freiza. But there is evidence that he did want to end the series after the defeat of Cell.

Oh and there is no gap between Dragonball and Dragonball Z. There are literally the same storyline in the Manga. It the was anime that did that. For a long time, thd manages was simply called Dragonball, not Dragonball Z. As in DBZ didn't start at Chapter 1 but was Chapter 195.

Toriyama is well known to make stuff up as he goes and tends to forget things he has done before. He has tight deadlines afterall. But even then he still had people above him making inputs which includes the now infamous story about the Android saga.

Originally it was supposed to be Dr Gero and Android 20. Then his superior said the new villains is an old guy and a clown? So then he created Android 17 and 18 and yet again he was asked the villains are now teenagers? Then Cell was created and originally he wasn't supposed to go past Semi Perfect Cell. But that changed as well.

As well as Buu Saga was supposed to be Gohan and not Goku. But Goku was put in due to more popularity. He also hated Vegeta but had to keep him in due to popularity. So many stories out there.

I suggest everyone watch or listen to Geekdom101 or Saiyan Scholar. Geekdom101 is much more of purist than others. He tried once to force the real saying of Saiyan as being Si-an as opposed to the English dub of Say-an.

[Thebestoftherest]

I am just curious what would have happened if they hated perfect cell?

[Winter]

I think that there is something very important to bring up here: Toriyama infamously wanted to finish this show multiple times but was continuously enticed back (probably by money - I have no judgement of that though). Depending on the source, one ending point appears to be the end of Namek with Goku becoming the legendary warrior of myth and actually dying on that planet to hand over the reins to Gohan. The next appears to be the end of Cell - again with Goku dying and handing over the reins to Gohan.

This is WHY so much of Dragonball appears to be an asspull because it was. The Vegeta and Bulma relationship? Not intended which is why it comes out of nowhere.The whole Buu saga? Not intended, which is why it comes off as being so different in tone. Multiple Super Saiyan transformations? Not intended.

This is also why there is such a gap between DBZ and DBS. He was done with it. Rumour has it that he came back only because he was so annoyed by GT and DB Evolution mucking up his legacy (which btw does prove what Winter was saying earlier about how there will be a reboot of DBZ eventually because it has already kind of happened).

But there is even more to this story than that. Because not only did he really not want to be there, but there was huge executive meddling. The Androids were originally going to be Dr Gero and Android 20. They were the androids that wiped out the Z fighters. But the editor hated the idea saying ''who wants to follow some old guy'' and so it was changed to Android 17 and 18. Cell was going to be different too and in fact it seems as if he wasn't even going to be a thing originally.

Basically what I am saying is, with the benefit of hindsight as we do, I think that we could reboot the show better than Toriyama originally made it. Not because we are better writers than Toriyama but because Toriyama was faced with so many problems when making it.

I think that this story would have been better served by making Super Saiyan exactly what was originally intended: the end point of the story. By removing transformations and keeping what we had before: incremental power ups thanks to Kaioken or training arcs or divine water, we could have kept the human characters relevant and massively cut down the power creep.

I can answer these. There is no real evidence that he wanted to end the series after Goku becomes SSJ and the defeat of Freiza. But there is evidence that he did want to end the series after the defeat of Cell.

Oh and there is no gap between Dragonball and Dragonball Z. There are literally the same storyline in the Manga. It the was anime that did that. For a long time, thd manages was simply called Dragonball, not Dragonball Z. As in DBZ didn't start at Chapter 1 but was Chapter 195.

Toriyama is well known to make stuff up as he goes and tends to forget things he has done before. He has tight deadlines afterall. But even then he still had people above him making inputs which includes the now infamous story about the Android saga.

Originally it was supposed to be Dr Gero and Android 20. Then his superior said the new villains is an old guy and a clown? So then he created Android 17 and 18 and yet again he was asked the villains are now teenagers? Then Cell was created and originally he wasn't supposed to go past Semi Perfect Cell. But that changed as well.

As well as Buu Saga was supposed to be Gohan and not Goku. But Goku was put in due to more popularity. He also hated Vegeta but had to keep him in due to popularity. So many stories out there.

I suggest everyone watch or listen to Geekdom101 or Saiyan Scholar. Geekdom101 is much more of purist than others. He tried once to force the real saying of Saiyan as being Si-an as opposed to the English dub of Say-an.

Minor correction it was Toriyama who decided to bring Goku back because he felt that Gohan didn't work as a protagonist, not fan demand as is so often believed.

I will say that I liked how adaptable Toriyama was and the Cell saga is perhaps the best example of that. It's obvious that the two androids we meet are suppose to be the ones that Trunks talks about but then the higher ups came in and had Toriyama change it and then change it again when they disapproved of 18 and 17. And with Cell he had no idea what to do with this character so he kept it a "Mystery" that is until his editors wanted Cell to transform.

What I like about this is the use of Trunks who's just as confused by how things are changing from the history that he knows.

It's an interesting, if unintentional, look at the idea of Destiny vs. Free Will and how trying to change history for the better could make things both better and worse then they were before. Obviously the timeline we ended up with is the better one with most of the heroes alive, 18 and 17 on the side of the heroes and Cell defeated. But they were up against stronger villains and a more terrifying monster in Cell.

But back to Toriyama handling of the changes to his story. Even knowing that what we got was a the result of his editors having him change things I still sometimes forget that's the case because it all kinda makes sense. Trunks changed things and as a result, well, things changed and he to adapt and try to keep up with those changes.