Regarding Dragonball Super

[McAvoy]

Since we got a bunch of Dragonball posts lately might as well talk about Super. Buried somewhere in this forum is that but I think a fresh take on it would work. It's been years since the anime ended with Tournament of Power.

Ending with Tournament of Power was actually a smart idea IMO. I know the manga continued and I haven't followed it recently. We did get Heroes which IMO was a lazy rehas of the Cell Games.

I will start with I love Beerus and Whis. They added alot to the series. They kicked off the series going to the realm of the Devine. Dragonball and Z both touched on this previously. First with Kami, then the Otherworld with King Kai and then Supreme Kai. But actually having a God of Destruction and an Angel companion? Great. I also like that Beerus or other Gods of Destructions are linked to the Supreme Kai. Like their one true weakness.

While I am not a real fan of the characterization of the Omni King, Zenni, as he or later they come off as just children, I do like that the reason why they like Goku is his straightforward personality (Goku being like this is still on par for Goku even in Z). Think about it, before Goku everyone except the Angels groveled to him. It probably annoyed and bored him. Having a mortal with no fear and friendly was new.

In the context of the whole show, bringing back Freiza was a good idea. He was fun in the Tournament of Power even if his movie wasn't that good.

It was still the Goku and Vegeta show though with a more emphasis on Goku. But at least Beerus and Whis were there. Beerus occasionally threatening Goku or Vegeta with erasure.

Has so many flaws though. For most of the series Gohan was done wrong especially in the Freiza movie. Piccolo continued his downward trend of usefulness with much of it just being a babysitter to Pan. Videl being a demure housewife and not resembling herself from Z. It seems like someone based Goku off of his Team Four Star character. Buu falling asleep twice got old.

They should have kept Fit Buu for the Tournament of Power and replaced Master Roshi. Don't get me wrong, I liked what they did with Roshi. Hell even in the Manga, Roshi showed a form of Ultra Instinct. But he was just horribly outclassed. I get it, he was there as a way to show that power wasn't everything and experience, tactics, strategies was going to be a part of this. But then we saw Goku fight and eventually overpower Jiren who was beyond all of that.

So many ass pulls. First one would be from the Freiza movie. First off is Freiza being able to bridge a vast gap since the Namek saga to Super in four months. Then just creating Super Saiyan Blue off screen and we not really seeing it. Vegeta also in this respect as he went from having just SSJ2 to now SSJB. One thing the anime should have done was create a few episodes that shows this in some form.

Then we got the Universe 6 Saiyans. It was one thing to get Cabba to go SSJ as Vegeta was teaching them. It was another describing it as a tingly feeling in the back when he taught the others. Then them going SSJ2 in the Tournament of Power. It really kills Gohan's transformation in the Cell Games. I mean we already were deadened with any Saiyan really being able to go SSJ by this point. Super Saiyan bargain sale indeed.

Never liked the Future Trunks arc. The ending even worse. If anything it should have ended with Futue Zamasu being locked in the Evil Containment Wave and then locked up in his universe. With Trunks taking on Goku Black Rose. There wasn't any real reason to have two Omni Kings by the time of Tournament of Power honestly.

I think the anime would have benefitted more of what you could call filler episodes that we got in between the main arcs. Like we did get a nice lead up between Future Trunks and Tournament of Power.

Oh and since I am about to talk about Trunks and Goten, I will say it did kinda annoy me that they weren't aged up as the show progressed. Gohan did. Goku did. They kept them as little kids. Even though we arent really sure the time progression withkn the show, my gut feeling is that Trunks should be about 11 and Goten about 10.

Now getting to Trunks and Goten. I am OK with what they had in the show. It was always ridiculous back in Z having Gohan fight the Big Bads as a kid. First the Saiyans when he was 5-6 years old. Maybe 7 when he fought Freiza. I think 12 when he fought Cell. That being said, then we come to Gotenks. Yes a powerful fusion of the boys but they did give in universe reasons. They are too young, too inexperienced. Or their power just wasn't enough for whatever they were going to face.

[stryke]

Ending with Tournament of Power was actually a smart idea IMO. I know the manga continued and I haven't followed it recently. We did get Heroes which IMO was a lazy rehas of the Cell Games.

I'd prefer to see it as the show ending with the Broly movie which was genuinely fantastic, and uses Frieza even better than the ToP did. That last episode of ToP is so dang good as well. Even if you're not a a fan of DB, which I'm not really, I'd say it's worth watching if you're a fan of well animated fight scenes.

Never liked the Future Trunks arc. The ending even worse.

Does have one of the funniest lines in all of DB from the dub though so that's something.

That aside I think it''s a fine arc... but oh man that last episode is utterly wretched. Just awful.

I think the biggest advice for Super is to skip the film remake arcs. You avoid the worst animation, and get to start with the first tournament which is a much better entry point.

[McAvoy]

Well in a perfect world, the animation would be good at the start of Super. I don't mind too much on the remakes of the first two movies. But at least take the time to actually bridge the two movies.

How did Vegeta gain the power of a Super Saiyan God?

How did Goku regain the power of Super Saiyan God? Or did he at that time?

How did Vegeta and Goku gain the power of Super Saiyan Blue.

Some kind of context to show why Gohan lost so much power from Battle of the Gods to Resurrection F. He looked like himself from Buu Saga in Battle of the Gods and looked bad in the subsequent movie.

I remember the speculation about the contrast between SSG and SSB at the time. In that SSG was a special form for only a ritual. Saiyans gain the power of SSG, but not the form. Super Saiyan Blue was like, Saiyan's way of getting to that form but without that ritual. Something like that at least.

Then we find out it can be used by both Vegeta and Goku at will later on. Especially in the Manga.

[Thebestoftherest]

I just hope when it returns properly in whatever form, take your time and let the manga iron out the details

[McAvoy]

I just hope when it returns properly in whatever form, take your time and let the manga iron out the details

It it does I hope they learn from the mistakes of the Manga. Unlike the original Dragonball run, both OG and Z followed the manga faithfully even if they had to add filler. Back then, making anime was faster than the Manga so Toei had to create filler so the Manga could keep pace.

But with Super, the manga and the anime differs alot. Take for example during the Tournament of Power. In the anime, Master Roshi never fought Jiren. In the Manga he did, and displayed a proto-Ultra Instinct.

There was also no Kaio-Ken on top of SSB. Or Vegeta's SSB Evolution. In fact both Goku and Vegeta had basically what you would call fully mastered Super Saiyan Blue forms which they didn't have in the anime.

The point is if they decide to continue, they could improve upon it. Especially since it's been years since the Tournament of Power where the anime ended.

[Nobody700]

Well in a perfect world, the animation would be good at the start of Super. I don't mind too much on the remakes of the first two movies. But at least take the time to actually bridge the two movies.

How did Vegeta gain the power of a Super Saiyan God?

How did Goku regain the power of Super Saiyan God? Or did he at that time?

How did Vegeta and Goku gain the power of Super Saiyan Blue.

Some kind of context to show why Gohan lost so much power from Battle of the Gods to Resurrection F. He looked like himself from Buu Saga in Battle of the Gods and looked bad in the subsequent movie.

I remember the speculation about the contrast between SSG and SSB at the time. In that SSG was a special form for only a ritual. Saiyans gain the power of SSG, but not the form. Super Saiyan Blue was like, Saiyan's way of getting to that form but without that ritual. Something like that at least.

Then we find out it can be used by both Vegeta and Goku at will later on. Especially in the Manga.

1. Vegeta ordered everyone to do it again, even fetus Pan
2. I never assumed he lost it
3. Like they do with every power up, they just screamed HARDER and they went from red to blue.
4. He did 4 push-ups instead of the regular 5, and forgot his juice.

I assume super saiyan blue is super saiyan god's version of full power saiyans, the mastered form of it.

[McAvoy]

Well in a perfect world, the animation would be good at the start of Super. I don't mind too much on the remakes of the first two movies. But at least take the time to actually bridge the two movies.

How did Vegeta gain the power of a Super Saiyan God?

How did Goku regain the power of Super Saiyan God? Or did he at that time?

How did Vegeta and Goku gain the power of Super Saiyan Blue.

Some kind of context to show why Gohan lost so much power from Battle of the Gods to Resurrection F. He looked like himself from Buu Saga in Battle of the Gods and looked bad in the subsequent movie.

I remember the speculation about the contrast between SSG and SSB at the time. In that SSG was a special form for only a ritual. Saiyans gain the power of SSG, but not the form. Super Saiyan Blue was like, Saiyan's way of getting to that form but without that ritual. Something like that at least.

Then we find out it can be used by both Vegeta and Goku at will later on. Especially in the Manga.

1. Vegeta ordered everyone to do it again, even fetus Pan
2. I never assumed he lost it
3. Like they do with every power up, they just screamed HARDER and they went from red to blue.
4. He did 4 push-ups instead of the regular 5, and forgot his juice.

I assume super saiyan blue is super saiyan god's version of full power saiyans, the mastered form of it.

1. It was stated Vegeta figured it out on his own. No ritual. Goku said that when Vegeta fought Freiza in Resurrection F saga in the anime.

2. I think Goku initially lost it when he fought Beerus but regained it when he trained with Vegeta and Whis.

3. The common theory is SSJB is just the Super Saiyan transformation on top of the SSJG form. Which brings up how did Goku manage to keep up with Beerus without the SSJG form.

Initially the idea was the God form was just unique and needed the ritual to do it. Then the Saiyan body learns from the power and takes on that God Ki as his own. The SSJB is just using the SSJ transformation while using using God Ki. Goku Black's SSJ Rose would be a more pure form that as he has perhaps a more pure form of God Ki.

The appearance of SSJG again throws this all for a loop.