The Thrawn Trilogy

[Paul Walker]

I saw some people commenting on the Thrawn Trilogy acting as a spiritual successor to the prequels because of things like Coruscant etc. That's true, but I think it's only because the Thrawn Trilogy is so respected that Lucas himself used some ideas from them. Coruscant was first introduced in the Thrawn Trilogy. I can't bring myself to watch the holiday special, but even though they were at the wookie home, I don't think it was named Kashyyyk until Zahn's books either. And the name Palpatine was first released in these books too. Because until 1991, we knew next to nothing about the Emperor even when he died (which is why I'm always surprised when that complaint is levelled at Snoke...)

Anyway, I think a Disney take on this would be awesome, as long as Mr Zahn is onboard to consult with.

The issue with there be no information about Snoke vs The Emperor was that the cast and crew kept building up the mystery as to who he was. Abrams saying how Snoke was more like Yoda then Palpatine, (which we never see as he spends most of the films yelling and knocking his own allies around) raising questions on how he was able to turn Ben to the Dark Side, who was Snoke and where did he come from and why was such a threat? All these questions went completely unanswered, for now, as Johnson was more interested in subverting expectations then answering these questions.

You said it yourself: Abrams said Snoke was more like Yoda than Palpatine. But we never saw any of that in The Force Awakens either. I can accept that TLJ subverted expectations, but at least it did tell a new story. TFA told a story we had already had twice before. The BIG BAD have built a BIG BASE which can destroy BIG THINGS now we need to send our SMALL SHIPS and target THE WEAK SPOT to defeat the BIG BAD.

TFA got away with it because it had a nostalgic quality. But it was not a great film. It went out of its way to play it safe. TLJ tried to do the Empire Strikes Back, by subverting the norms and shaking up the cast. It had the harder job as well, because TFA just had to introduce the new cast, this one had to find ways to keep the focus on the newcomers rather than let the movie be carried by the old guard (Harrison Ford). It's actually why JJ didn't find Luke earlier, because (in his words) once Luke was in play the movie became all about him.

Some people don't like how TLJ handled everything, but now we have a more streamlined set-up for the third film. The plan no doubt was to have Leia acting as the general in charge of the re-forming Resistance, and to have Rey, Poe, Finn, Rose and BB8 making up the new lead quintet. At some point Leia would probably have been written out, and have Poe moved up to a more senior post having learned some humility after TLJ. Sadly we'll never know if this is the case now, due to the deaths of the actors who played both Leia and Ackbar (which is why Ackbar was killed in TLJ too).

[Winter]

I saw some people commenting on the Thrawn Trilogy acting as a spiritual successor to the prequels because of things like Coruscant etc. That's true, but I think it's only because the Thrawn Trilogy is so respected that Lucas himself used some ideas from them. Coruscant was first introduced in the Thrawn Trilogy. I can't bring myself to watch the holiday special, but even though they were at the wookie home, I don't think it was named Kashyyyk until Zahn's books either. And the name Palpatine was first released in these books too. Because until 1991, we knew next to nothing about the Emperor even when he died (which is why I'm always surprised when that complaint is levelled at Snoke...)

Anyway, I think a Disney take on this would be awesome, as long as Mr Zahn is onboard to consult with.

The issue with there be no information about Snoke vs The Emperor was that the cast and crew kept building up the mystery as to who he was. Abrams saying how Snoke was more like Yoda then Palpatine, (which we never see as he spends most of the films yelling and knocking his own allies around) raising questions on how he was able to turn Ben to the Dark Side, who was Snoke and where did he come from and why was such a threat? All these questions went completely unanswered, for now, as Johnson was more interested in subverting expectations then answering these questions.

You said it yourself: Abrams said Snoke was more like Yoda than Palpatine. But we never saw any of that in The Force Awakens either. I can accept that TLJ subverted expectations, but at least it did tell a new story. TFA told a story we had already had twice before. The BIG BAD have built a BIG BASE which can destroy BIG THINGS now we need to send our SMALL SHIPS and target THE WEAK SPOT to defeat the BIG BAD.

TFA got away with it because it had a nostalgic quality. But it was not a great film. It went out of its way to play it safe. TLJ tried to do the Empire Strikes Back, by subverting the norms and shaking up the cast. It had the harder job as well, because TFA just had to introduce the new cast, this one had to find ways to keep the focus on the newcomers rather than let the movie be carried by the old guard (Harrison Ford). It's actually why JJ didn't find Luke earlier, because (in his words) once Luke was in play the movie became all about him.

Some people don't like how TLJ handled everything, but now we have a more streamlined set-up for the third film. The plan no doubt was to have Leia acting as the general in charge of the re-forming Resistance, and to have Rey, Poe, Finn, Rose and BB8 making up the new lead quintet. At some point Leia would probably have been written out, and have Poe moved up to a more senior post having learned some humility after TLJ. Sadly we'll never know if this is the case now, due to the deaths of the actors who played both Leia and Ackbar (which is why Ackbar was killed in TLJ too).

I can't really agree in regards to Last telling a new story because, as TV Tropes pointed out, it's not new. Here's the bit from TV Tropes on the subject of Last.

The movie hits all of the major plot points The Empire Strikes Back did: Stern Chase, a group of the main characters going to a different planet where they find a charismatic rogue who ultimately betrays them, Jedi training (where the trainee goes to a place filled with The Dark Side to confront themselves), the reveal of the protagonist's parents by the Darth Vader Clone Big Bad done in a way meant to be deliberately shocking, a cliffhanger ending where the heroes are in a weak situation but still have hope, etc.

Again this is just my opinion but for me, much like Awakens, Last has the same problem of just copying the events of the Original Trilogy without taking in any of the context to make it work on it's own.

With Dark Force Rising the only plot points that are similar to Empire are, the hero of the story, Mara, ending up getting hurt during the final battle and the Empire winning the fight and ending on a cliffhanger only with things looking more bleak then when they started. And that's it, Mara doesn't confront herself in a place that is strong in with the Dark Side, there's no real chase scene in space, and while we do have one hero betraying another and there is a reveal about one's parentage it's the charming roue who gets betrayed, (Mara goes behind Karrde's back and makes a deal with Thrawn only for him to turn on her which forces Mara to turn on Karrde to save his life) and the reveal in regards to Mara's parentage is Mara learning that she wasn't the only Hand of the Emperor which is the first real hint to Mara that she was nothing to Palpatine other then a tool to be used and discarded when of no further use.

Other then that the two couldn't be any more different. Unlike in Empire the heroes and the villains are in a stalemate, neither has enough power to really do any lasting harm so both have to resort to spying and espionage with information being the most powerful weapon in the war right now. And the one thing that can tilt the balance in either sides favor is the Katana fleet which Thrawn gets in the end and the reveal that he has been creating a clone army to tilt the odds even more in his favor.

In Last it is pretty much the same as it was in Empire, The First Order has the better numbers, better firepower and the more powerful Force users and the Rebellion has to resort to retreating as they do not have the means in fighting the First Order directly.

Again these are just my opinion and you are free to desagree with me but as of right now I feel that Dark Force, while the weakest of TTT is a lot stronger as a stand alone story as it manages to be a darker middle chapter of the Trilogy without copying Empire and instead doing it's own thing.

[Paul Walker]

Oh I'm not challenging that The Last Jedi is stronger than the Thrawn Trilogy. It's not. Though that goes in to Disney not laying down a plan for Episodes 7-9.

I agree with some of the repetition regarding Empire and Return of the Jedi, but I still think the repetition isn't as glaring as in TFA.

Had I the option to have the Thrawn Trilogy as episodes 7-9, I'd jump at the chance. I'm merely hoping that, with Thrawn not dieing in Rebels, that he can be used post-ROTJ and maybe in some more intense plots

[Winter]

Oh I'm not challenging that The Last Jedi is stronger than the Thrawn Trilogy. It's not. Though that goes in to Disney not laying down a plan for Episodes 7-9.

I agree with some of the repetition regarding Empire and Return of the Jedi, but I still think the repetition isn't as glaring as in TFA.

Had I the option to have the Thrawn Trilogy as episodes 7-9, I'd jump at the chance. I'm merely hoping that, with Thrawn not dieing in Rebels, that he can be used post-ROTJ and maybe in some more intense plots

In regards to the first, as Chuck pointed out Lucas didn't actually plan out the original Trilogy but he did seem to have some idea where everything was going. I'm pretty sure he figured that Leia and Han would end up together, he planned for the bad guys to win in Empire, he new he would also make the Prequels to the original trilogy and it was always his intent to have the Empire defeated in the end.

With the Disney Era, nothing seems to really be planned at all, not even the basic idea of what the character arcs are in the new films. Rey barely grew as a character in Awakens and didn't develop at all in Last and the same goes for Finn and Poe. Not only that but the First Order is actually less threatening then Nute Gunray, a villain designed to be pathetic.

As for the repetition, I think it's just as bad in Last as it was in Awakens if not worse it wasn't only copying Empire and Return at several points but also Awakens plot. As others have pointed out the basic plot of Last is the exact same thing as Empire and the scene between Rey, Ren and Snoke is pretty much just the scene between Luke, Vader and Palpatine in Return.

And in regards to future projects right now the only one I'm interested in is Season 7 of Clone Wars. If the next few SW projects are really Really good then I might check it out but right now talking about Star Wars just isn't fun as the fandom and creative team is like Kirkwall in DA2. Everyone is just awful right now.

[KashyBoy101]

Rey barely grew as a character in Awakens and didn't develop at all in Last and the same goes for Finn and Poe.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. Rey's entire motivation, in parallel to Ben Solo, is that she's starved for approval and validation, be it from parents that she deludes herself into thinking were something other than junkies who sold her for a fix, or from legacy characters she grew up idolizing like Han and Luke, and even Kylo Ren himself when she feels she has no one else to get it from.

The vision from the Force cave represents the last thing she wants to see; the true vision of the only person who can actually give her what she's looking for. Kylo's words to her "You come from nothing. You ARE nothing. But not to me." represent the promise of that false validation in it's most naked form. In other words, "No, you're not special. You ARE garbage that was thrown away, as you always feared. But I can make you special so that you won't be garbage that was thrown away."

And this is exactly why it's so important that she rejects his offer, and why it's so important that her parents were nobodies.

[Winter]

The problem there is, we already did that scene in Awakens just not as dramatic. Kylo offers to teach Rey in the ways of the Force and praises her for her power, she refuses, they fight, she wins and leaves him. That's why I feel she has little character development Awakens and no real development in Last because most of what she did in Awakens she just ends up doing in Last.

Here's the thing about Rey in first two films as is, she starts as someone looking for her place in the galaxy, has this great power she really doesn't understand and is looking for someone to show her where she fits into this story. And that's how she ends both Awakens and Last, with her looking for someone to tell her how she fits into this story.

With Mara, while it was slow at first each part of the Trilogy pushed her forward in her journey to become a hero. She starts off hating Luke in Heir and still hates him at the end but comes to respect and trust him after he saved her life while showing her nothing but respect. In Dark Force she begins to question her hatred for Luke and as well as her loyalty to The Emperor as she begins to learn just how far he manipulated her. Before we even get to Command she has pretty much given up on rejoining the Empire and is now almost firmly on the side of the heroes and has begun to see Luke as a friend.

With Rey, she starts where she began as a character and her relationship with Kylo is, IMO, rather forced. She goes from hating him for death of Han and putting Finn in a coma to being pretty much in love with him in less then a day and is convinced that she can redeem Kylo.

Going over to Rey's parentage for a moment and the real issue with them being nobody junkies that sold her for a fix. That they aren't anyone we know is not the problem, that Rey is so powerful in the Force for no logical reason isn't a problem and her not being a Skywalker, a Kanobi or Solo isn't a problem. The Problem is this plot twist doesn't mean anything and was pretty much resolved back in Awakens.

When Mara finally learned just how far Palpatine manipulated her it's a big moment that has a great effect on her character. It is the moment when she finally does everything in her power to break away from Palpatine and join Luke as one of the heroes with the only thing holding her back being Palpatine's Last Command to her. Rey learning her parents are nobodies doesn't change anything for either her or the story, she was on the side of the heroes and stays their with no real issue. I honestly was never convinced that Rey was going to fall to the Dark Side much like how I was convinced that Mara would never be able to kill Luke.

But I wasn't sure if Mara would ever go over to the light side or if Luke would be forced to kill her in self defense, which made the moment where she finally broke free of Palpatine's last command all the more powerful.

I'm not saying you're wrong and that I'm right this is just how I see Rey and why I feel she has little real development whereas I find Mara to be a truly great character who grows and develops throughout the Thrawn Trilogy.