Darth Maul After The Phantom Menace

[Winter]

Seeing that Chuck will be reviewing the Return of Darth Maul in a few weeks I wanted to know what everyone thinks of Maul in Star Wars after Phantom Menace. For me personally I don't like how he was handled as I feel they all completely miss the point of the character and the attempts to add depth just makes him more shallow.

One of my issues with Maul post Phantom is that he went from a quite killer who almost never spoke or showed any sort of expression out side of a sinister smile to a annoying chatter box who over emotes to the point that it goes straight into comedy. Honestly, he reminds me of Kylo Ren from the Sequel Trilogy and that is Not a complement as he feels more whiny and less intimidating and his his motivation and goals do not line up with the method he goes about achieving them.

Spoilers for anyone who has yet to watch the show, but soon after the two episodes we're about to get Maul fight's Obi-Wan again and loses and is forced to retreat. He then decides to become a crime lord and take over the criminal under world but fails to take over the Hutts. He then take over Mandalore while also restoring the Mandilorians which results in him getting into a fight with the leader of Death Watch who we met back in Season 2 which results in him taking over Mandalore which he then uses to kidnap Obi-Wan's sorta love interest and then when Obi-Wan tries to save her they both get captured resulting in Maul killing the love interest and do see what I mean?!

This is way to complected and doesn't add up when you actually think about it. In Phantom Maul was just a mindless killing machine that was meant to represent the Dark Side. He was evil, single minded and deadly. Every other case of Maul appearing have always tried to "improve" the character and every single one, including the CW version miss the point of the character. Maul is meant to just be evil and a challenge for Obi-Wan to overcome and a precursor for Vader, both as a Dragon for the Emperor and as Ob-Wan's nemesis. Trying to improve him has only ever resulted in a less interesting character, for me at least.

[PerrySimm]

The tendency for EU and secondary canon to include comic book style villain resurrections is another thing that keeps Star Wars firmly within the Fantasy genre.

[clearspira]

Seeing that Chuck will be reviewing the Return of Darth Maul in a few weeks I wanted to know what everyone thinks of Maul in Star Wars after Phantom Menace. For me personally I don't like how he was handled as I feel they all completely miss the point of the character and the attempts to add depth just makes him more shallow.

One of my issues with Maul post Phantom is that he went from a quite killer who almost never spoke or showed any sort of expression out side of a sinister smile to a annoying chatter box who over emotes to the point that it goes straight into comedy. Honestly, he reminds me of Kylo Ren from the Sequel Trilogy and that is Not a complement as he feels more whiny and less intimidating and his his motivation and goals do not line up with the method he goes about achieving them.

Spoilers for anyone who has yet to watch the show, but soon after the two episodes we're about to get Maul fight's Obi-Wan again and loses and is forced to retreat. He then decides to become a crime lord and take over the criminal under world but fails to take over the Hutts. He then take over Mandalore while also restoring the Mandilorians which results in him getting into a fight with the leader of Death Watch who we met back in Season 2 which results in him taking over Mandalore which he then uses to kidnap Obi-Wan's sorta love interest and then when Obi-Wan tries to save her they both get captured resulting in Maul killing the love interest and do see what I mean?!

This is way to complected and doesn't add up when you actually think about it. In Phantom Maul was just a mindless killing machine that was meant to represent the Dark Side. He was evil, single minded and deadly. Every other case of Maul appearing have always tried to "improve" the character and every single one, including the CW version miss the point of the character. Maul is meant to just be evil and a challenge for Obi-Wan to overcome and a precursor for Vader, both as a Dragon for the Emperor and as Ob-Wan's nemesis. Trying to improve him has only ever resulted in a less interesting character, for me at least.

Everything you said here applies equally if not more so to Boba Fett. In the original trilogy he was a murderous nobody bounty hunter among other murderous nobody bounty hunters who later died in the gut of a Sarlaac in quite a pathetic way. He barely got a line and he certainly wasn't honourable as Darth ''i kill children'' Vader had to warn him not to murder his prisoners. The EU retconned him as some ultimate warrior from a race of ultimate warriors and the prequels latched off that popularity by making him some kind of special clone warrior. They have ''improved'' him by for intents and purposes deleting the original character and making a completely new one - as they have with Maul.

[Winter]

Everything you said here applies equally if not more so to Boba Fett. In the original trilogy he was a murderous nobody bounty hunter among other murderous nobody bounty hunters who later died in the gut of a Sarlaac in quite a pathetic way. He barely got a line and he certainly wasn't honourable as Darth ''i kill children'' Vader had to warn him not to murder his prisoners. The EU retconned him as some ultimate warrior from a race of ultimate warriors and the prequels latched off that popularity by making him some kind of special clone warrior. They have ''improved'' him by for intents and purposes deleting the original character and making a completely new one - as they have with Maul.

True but the difference, for me at least, is that Fett in the EU still kept true to how he acted in Empire, or at least in the novels or comics I read, where he was cold & aloof and his main motivation was getting paid while going up against the heroes every once and a while. I'll even admit that I like the fact that he was made into a "special" clone by way of being made because Jango wanted a son.

Still, you're right in that the same thing happen with Boba and while I felt it was mostly well handled it still has it's issues and changed the character to better fit thought he should be which was the opposite of what he was presented as back in Empire.

[CharlesPhipps]

Darth Maul didn't have a character before.

The Darth Maul of the TV show(s) has the arc of establishing a number of interesting facts about him:

1. Darth Maul is a Sith Lord. He's not a weapon, he was trained in intelligence and tactics by Sidious.
2. Darth Maul had a past before Sidious took and ruined him.
3. Darth Maul despite his brother's best efforts is irredeemable.

[Winter]

Darth Maul didn't have a character before.

The Darth Maul of the TV show(s) has the arc of establishing a number of interesting facts about him:

1. Darth Maul is a Sith Lord. He's not a weapon, he was trained in intelligence and tactics by Sidious.
2. Darth Maul had a past before Sidious took and ruined him.
3. Darth Maul despite his brother's best efforts is irredeemable.

How do you define a character, is Doctor's Strangers Cap a character or just a prop that makes funny jesters every now and then? Is Jet a character, or just a tragic backstory who moves the plot and character in their needed direction? Is BarkSpawn a character or just a PC that is cute? I feel Maul is a character in Phantom just not a very complex one and as Linkara pointed out, you don't need a villain that's super complected to be interesting, just a big enough threat that makes you want to see more of them.

For me, the thing about Maul is that he's pretty much Jason Voorhees, he isn't suppose to have a lot of character or depth he's just suppose to represent the Dark Side of the Force and in my opinion he does that very well.

Also, and I'm not trying to be rude here, I don't recall Savage trying to redeem Maul at any point. Like his brother he just wants to kill anyone and everyone who gets in their way for revenge, I think.

In regards to my point in regards to not needing a super complected villain Tokuga from The Legend of Korra: Turf Wars, is a crime lord who wants to take over the underworld of Republic City but after an encounter with a Spirit whom he believes was sent by Korra he is mutated and becomes a human-spirit hybrid. This results in him wanting revenge against Korra for said mutation but also continues to try and take over Republic City.

With Maul him wanting to take over the Criminal Underworld has little to nothing to do with his quest to kill Obi-Wan nor does any of his other tasks that he sets before himself in Rebels or whatever he was planning in Solo.

With Boba Fett, at least as far as the EU comic and books I've read, while a lot changed about him he was almost always driven by greed. He may have gotten a code that didn't gel with his established character in Empire but he was still a bounty hunter who was only against the heroes when he was getting paid for it.

Maul wants revenge but does little to actually get it and most of the time, for me at least, his other goals don't really do much to advance his character. Please note that I do like the overall episodes of the Maul arc as I did want to see where everything was going, in fact I'm the one who originally asked Chuck to review the Nightsisters Trilogy and I'm looking forward to Chuck's thoughts on the episodes. I just don't really like how Maul was handled and personally, seriously this is just my opinion, I didn't enjoy the first four episodes that covered Maul's return as much as NST.

And for me, I think Maul was more interesting in Phantom then later versions of the character. But that's just me and I'm just a viewer with an opinion.

[CharlesPhipps]

No, they didn't need to do it that way.

But they did decide to expand Darth Maul and go in a different direction with him from the voiceless warrior of old. Basically, they took the idea that he was trained by the most cunning and intelligent Sith Lord ever then decided, "Maybe this guy has something going on under the hood rather than just being a mass murdering psycho." In this case, we get Maul being intelligent and manipulative when he wants to be but not in Sidious' league.

I think it was a mistake to bring him back, true, and liked Savage Oppress much more than I ever did Maul.

However, they got a lot of mileage out of the Once Great WarriorTM who became a pathetic shell of his former self.

[Winter]

No, they didn't need to do it that way.

But they did decide to expand Darth Maul and go in a different direction with him from the voiceless warrior of old. Basically, they took the idea that he was trained by the most cunning and intelligent Sith Lord ever then decided, "Maybe this guy has something going on under the hood rather than just being a mass murdering psycho." In this case, we get Maul being intelligent and manipulative when he wants to be but not in Sidious' league.

I think it was a mistake to bring him back, true, and liked Savage Oppress much more than I ever did Maul.

However, they got a lot of mileage out of the Once Great WarriorTM who became a pathetic shell of his former self.

Hm, that's a good point and I agree but I just wish they had stayed true to how he acted. I don't mind him talking but I wish it was the same hushed whisper from the movies along with him showing little emotion. Maul being off the walls nuts in the first episode was fine but after that I think they took it to far with how he acted.

Like he was Really hamming it up after that and I don't think it was a good balance with Savage. Savage almost growls his lines which makes him seem more animal like which fits given that he was made to be a mindless beast by the Nightsisters. Having Maul retain his more quite persona, I think, would have been a been a better approach. Going back over to Boba Fett, while a lot was change about his character from Empire he still retained his rather stoic persona from that film and in some stories hardly ever spoke.

Sure that would be hard to do for a TV series but I feel that Maul could act more like he did in Phantom instead of going in the complete opposite direction with his mannerisms. It's like Anders from Dragon Age: Awakening vs. Anders from Dragon Age 2. While both have the same back story, are from the same franchise and look the same putting them side by side you wouldn't be able to tell that they were the same character.

They changed the character so much that I don't feel they are the same person. Like I said Maul in Phantom hardly ever emoted, hardly ever spoke and when he did it was often spoke very quietly. While Maul in CW overacts and almost never shuts up and doesn't really have a indoor voice.

Again these are just my opinions but for me Maul in CW felt rather weak when compared to Maul from Phantom or, to be more accurate, felt so different from his Phantom characterization that it was a real turn off for me.