The MCU's Ghost vs. Kylo Ren

[CmdrKing]

Shoulda been more explicit.
I think Luke's temptation to kill Ben was a PTSD reaction. In the span of around a year he
- Lost a hand to a Sith lord
- Murdered his way through a crime boss' layer and came dangerously close to falling to the dark side
- Lead all his friends into an ambush
- Was forced to watch huge chunks of the Alliance get Death Star'd
- Attempted to kill his own father and nearly fell to the dark side again
- Was electrocuted nearly to death
- Failed to save his father from wounds inflicted saving him
That's the stuff that leaves mental scars. While he may have it well managed most of the time, I can easily believe that being around a powerful dark side presence is a trigger for him. In that scene he reacts on instinct, takes a moment to calm himself... but that was a moment too long.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

While I certainly wouldn't have made the choice myself, I can kinda sorta buy Luke having a purely instinctual reaction to a sudden sense of evil in a surprising place. Actually turning on his lightsaber is a bit of a stretch, but for the sake of the story I might accept it. The scene is also an homage to Rashomon, so we never get an objective perspective. We know Kylo is wrong, but even Luke's version might be a little overly harsh with himself.

What I absolutely cannot believe is what comes after that. For better or worse, one of Luke's defining traits is that he is always willing to rush headlong into danger to save his friends. Rian Johnson can say what he wants about his Luke being a consistent extension of OT Luke, but the Luke we saw would never leave the galaxy and his friends to suffer for years because of a problem he created. To me, it's an absurd character assassination that leads me to disregard any kind of "redemption" or future arc for the character.

[Wargriffin]

Luke’s moment of weakness is completely understandable given his prior lightning-based experience with the Dark side, very human. But while it’s forgivable it’s definitely something he did and would feel guilty about.

I don't think its remotely believable from a man who didn't believe his father, who murdered his surrogate parents as well as whole planets plus cut off his hand, deserved to die. I don't think that Luke would ever think of murdering his own nephew for being unpleasant to the point he MIGHT do something evil in the future.

It's not so much, "Batman would never kill someone." It's more, "Batman would never kill someone's parents with a gun in a dark alley."

Luke could be flawed in many many ways but killing a family member because they're evil is definitely not one of them. Weirdly, I think the exact opposite is a much better motivation. Luke almost killing Kylo Ren? Not possible.

Luke ignoring that his nephew is a homicidal psychotic monster to the point he kills a bunch of his fellow students? Because he believes "Love will redeem?" I can believe that.

Rian:... but subversion!

[Worffan101]

Mind you, I think that the movies are aware Kylo Ren is a monster.

It's just the fandom doesn't seem to get it.

I could be wrong, though.

Then again, I give JJ Abrams enough credit that Ren was designed around, "Upper class White Kid who joins ISIS and unironically admires the Empire."

I felt that TLJ was kind of swooning over him a lot. But frankly, I'm more interested in learning wtf they did to remove Adam Driver's Marine tats in post, because I loathe TLJ and am actively trying to forget it.

[CharlesPhipps]

The problem with TLJ (well THIS PROBLEM) is not that it treats Kylo Ren as redeemable. The ending says that he's not.

It's that Rey ever thought he was to begin with.