Yet Another Last Jedi Review

[Yukaphile]

To play devil's advocate, sci-fi writers seem to have no sense of scale, and constantly underestimate how huge space is. So it literally could have been a week training with Yoda. Just saying.

[clearspira]

To play devil's advocate, sci-fi writers seem to have no sense of scale, and constantly underestimate how huge space is. So it literally could have been a week training with Yoda. Just saying.

True, but still the overall point here is that:

Anakin - years of training, Force skill advanced while young, gets his ass kicked by Dooku and Obi Wan.

Luke - couple of days training, Force skill develops over years, gets his ass kicked by Vader and Palaptine.

Rey - no training, goes from having no idea what the Force is to a high degree of skill in the Force in hours, goes on to effortlessly clean a room full of guards using advanced saber skill. Has yet to lose outright.

The people here defending this (I know you are not one of them) are advocates of bad writing. Nothing more.

[Karha of Honor]

To play devil's advocate, sci-fi writers seem to have no sense of scale, and constantly underestimate how huge space is. So it literally could have been a week training with Yoda. Just saying.

i would assume they would bring their A game for a Star Wars movie...

[clearspira]

To play devil's advocate, sci-fi writers seem to have no sense of scale, and constantly underestimate how huge space is. So it literally could have been a week training with Yoda. Just saying.

i would assume they would bring their A game for a Star Wars movie...

I would agree only if I had not watched Chuck's behind the scenes documentary on the original trilogy.

[Karha of Honor]

To play devil's advocate, sci-fi writers seem to have no sense of scale, and constantly underestimate how huge space is. So it literally could have been a week training with Yoda. Just saying.

i would assume they would bring their A game for a Star Wars movie...

I would agree only if I had not watched Chuck's behind the scenes documentary on the original trilogy.

That was pirate ship and they had no idea how valuable good IP management was.

[TheOneTrueJack]

Love the use of "Ma-Rey Sue." Though I'm curious if these people would apply Mary Sue to where it belongs when it's a male character? Because I've seen some male Mary Sues.

No, because otherwise Luke and especially Anakin would qualify.

Luke and Anakin are not Stu's. A) They both earned their abilities over YEARS of training instead of in a literal week like Rey and B) to say that Anakin - slayer of innocent children, strangler of wife, betrayer of his oath, torturer of prisoners and killer of millions doesn't have a few flaws is frankly the most hilarious thing I have ever heard. Literally, I am not making that up. You could post a Captain Flashheart clip on here right now and I would still laugh less than with what you just wrote.

Luke's "training" was like 2 days in the swamp with a muppet.

That's one of the things I like most about the new movies. They completely reject the prequel's depiction of Jedi training being something that took years for something much more in line with the original movies.

And if we limit it down to pure fighting skills, the movies establish Rey grew up in shithole and had to learn to fight from when she was literally a child. Her abilities are easily more justified (not that they had to be in the first place, it's a fantasy) than Anakin or Luke.

Officially a year has passed between ESB and ROJ which means that Luke had a year to practice the foundations of what Yoda taught him. So no, it wasn't just two days. And even then, even if we want to go with the silly 2 days notion, that is STILL more training than Rey received. And he didn't go on to defeat a room full of Snoke's guards effortlessly; he went on to get his ass kicked by Anakin/Vader who was clearly toying with him.

And I can tell you why Jedi training took years in the prequels: compare how unpolished Luke's saber technique is compared to Anakin and Obi Wan in their prime: that is the difference between formal training and no formal training. You cannot just pick up a saber and do all of that shit - unless you are MaRey of course.

Everything that Luke learned with Yoda, Rey learned with Luke. A basic, spiritual understanding of the Force to guide their way.

And Rey didn't defeat the guards. She defeats one, then almost gets killed while Kylo defeats the rest.

The over the top saber technigues I feel is one of the things the new movies is trying to forget. It just got silly, and I'm glad we've returned to something more grounded and slow paced. In the context of the original trilogy, Luke was clearly supposed to be a Jedi in his prime, not a novice. That's the bench mark the new movies are based of in terms of lightsaber skills.

And even then, there is clearly a world of difference between Rey's rough around the edges self thought fighting style and Kylo Ren's more practiced, traditionally trained approached.

[TheOneTrueJack]

Love the use of "Ma-Rey Sue." Though I'm curious if these people would apply Mary Sue to where it belongs when it's a male character? Because I've seen some male Mary Sues.

No, because otherwise Luke and especially Anakin would qualify.

Luke and Anakin are not Stu's. A) They both earned their abilities over YEARS of training instead of in a literal week like Rey and B) to say that Anakin - slayer of innocent children, strangler of wife, betrayer of his oath, torturer of prisoners and killer of millions doesn't have a few flaws is frankly the most hilarious thing I have ever heard. Literally, I am not making that up. You could post a Captain Flashheart clip on here right now and I would still laugh less than with what you just wrote.

Luke's "training" was like 2 days in the swamp with a muppet.

That's one of the things I like most about the new movies. They completely reject the prequel's depiction of Jedi training being something that took years for something much more in line with the original movies.

And if we limit it down to pure fighting skills, the movies establish Rey grew up in shithole and had to learn to fight from when she was literally a child. Her abilities are easily more justified (not that they had to be in the first place, it's a fantasy) than Anakin or Luke.

The hyperdrive on the Falcon was damaged, which means that they were there for a long period of time and thus Luke was Yoda for a long while as well (it should actually be several years, even if the Hoth system was right next door to the one Bespin was in, but I digress- the events of the film take place over at least a month). Also, Luke had been training on his own for some time between ANH and TESB- officially, three years passed between both movies.

So, no, it's not at all the case that the OT is closer to the ST than the prequels in regards to training, not least because the OT explicitly shows that they do in fact NEED training and Rey is pulling off Force tricks without receiving any at all even in TFA (like, when she uses the Jedi Mind Trick on Daniel Craigtrooper, which overlooks that Luke himself had no idea the technique even existed until Kenobi told him, so how did she know?).

I know logically ESB should take place over a long period of time, but hard logic has never really had a place in Star Wars. It feels like only a few days have passed while watching the movie, therefore only a few days have passed.

But I will acknowledge that Lucas is weirdly bad at showing the passage of time in his films, so who even knows what the original intent was. I'm sticking with two days, because that just makes the most sense to me.

As for Rey knowing the Jedi mind trick, the film establishes she grew up hearing stories about the Jedi and the events of the original trilogy. She's basically a massive Jedi/Rebellion/Star Wars fangirl. It's really no surprise that after discovering she has a connection to the Force she'll try pulling of perhaps the iconic Jedi Force ability. Which she only pulls of on a Stormtrooper, after failing multiple times.

People really seem hung up on this scene for some reason, but honestly I didn't see a problem. It was a fun way of telling the audience she's force sensitive.

[clearspira]

Love the use of "Ma-Rey Sue." Though I'm curious if these people would apply Mary Sue to where it belongs when it's a male character? Because I've seen some male Mary Sues.

No, because otherwise Luke and especially Anakin would qualify.

Luke and Anakin are not Stu's. A) They both earned their abilities over YEARS of training instead of in a literal week like Rey and B) to say that Anakin - slayer of innocent children, strangler of wife, betrayer of his oath, torturer of prisoners and killer of millions doesn't have a few flaws is frankly the most hilarious thing I have ever heard. Literally, I am not making that up. You could post a Captain Flashheart clip on here right now and I would still laugh less than with what you just wrote.

Luke's "training" was like 2 days in the swamp with a muppet.

That's one of the things I like most about the new movies. They completely reject the prequel's depiction of Jedi training being something that took years for something much more in line with the original movies.

And if we limit it down to pure fighting skills, the movies establish Rey grew up in shithole and had to learn to fight from when she was literally a child. Her abilities are easily more justified (not that they had to be in the first place, it's a fantasy) than Anakin or Luke.

Officially a year has passed between ESB and ROJ which means that Luke had a year to practice the foundations of what Yoda taught him. So no, it wasn't just two days. And even then, even if we want to go with the silly 2 days notion, that is STILL more training than Rey received. And he didn't go on to defeat a room full of Snoke's guards effortlessly; he went on to get his ass kicked by Anakin/Vader who was clearly toying with him.

And I can tell you why Jedi training took years in the prequels: compare how unpolished Luke's saber technique is compared to Anakin and Obi Wan in their prime: that is the difference between formal training and no formal training. You cannot just pick up a saber and do all of that shit - unless you are MaRey of course.

Everything that Luke learned with Yoda, Rey learned with Luke. A basic, spiritual understanding of the Force to guide their way.

And Rey didn't defeat the guards. She defeats one, then almost gets killed while Kylo defeats the rest.

The over the top saber technigues I feel is one of the things the new movies is trying to forget. It just got silly, and I'm glad we've returned to something more grounded and slow paced. In the context of the original trilogy, Luke was clearly supposed to be a Jedi in his prime, not a novice. That's the bench mark the new movies are based of in terms of lightsaber skills.

And even then, there is clearly a world of difference between Rey's rough around the edges self thought fighting style and Kylo Ren's more practiced, traditionally trained approached.

OK, I'm game: what did old man Luke teach Rey exactly? From what I saw, most of her stay was sent trying to convince him to help, then he sat her down, and she suddenly in about ten seconds made a connection with Force that terrified Luke AKA the man who has gone head to head with Vader and Palpatine. She then beat him with his own lightsaber and then left. And I think you need to watch Empire again: Yoda actually walks Luke through it, not just sat him down and tickled his hand with a stick. Oh, and then Luke WENT AWAY FOR A YEAR AND PRACTISED. This last bit seems to be really hard for Rey defenders to understand.

And you feel that the Sequel trilogy has tried to get away form over the top saber moves, herm? Go and watch RLM or Maulers analysis of that fight. Its choreography is every bit like the Prequels, except the Prequels didn't have knives that magically vanish before our eyes so that MaRey wouldn't die. I don't remember the editor having the save Luke or Anakin - funny that.

[TheOneTrueJack]

Love the use of "Ma-Rey Sue." Though I'm curious if these people would apply Mary Sue to where it belongs when it's a male character? Because I've seen some male Mary Sues.

No, because otherwise Luke and especially Anakin would qualify.

Luke and Anakin are not Stu's. A) They both earned their abilities over YEARS of training instead of in a literal week like Rey and B) to say that Anakin - slayer of innocent children, strangler of wife, betrayer of his oath, torturer of prisoners and killer of millions doesn't have a few flaws is frankly the most hilarious thing I have ever heard. Literally, I am not making that up. You could post a Captain Flashheart clip on here right now and I would still laugh less than with what you just wrote.

Luke's "training" was like 2 days in the swamp with a muppet.

That's one of the things I like most about the new movies. They completely reject the prequel's depiction of Jedi training being something that took years for something much more in line with the original movies.

And if we limit it down to pure fighting skills, the movies establish Rey grew up in shithole and had to learn to fight from when she was literally a child. Her abilities are easily more justified (not that they had to be in the first place, it's a fantasy) than Anakin or Luke.

Officially a year has passed between ESB and ROJ which means that Luke had a year to practice the foundations of what Yoda taught him. So no, it wasn't just two days. And even then, even if we want to go with the silly 2 days notion, that is STILL more training than Rey received. And he didn't go on to defeat a room full of Snoke's guards effortlessly; he went on to get his ass kicked by Anakin/Vader who was clearly toying with him.

And I can tell you why Jedi training took years in the prequels: compare how unpolished Luke's saber technique is compared to Anakin and Obi Wan in their prime: that is the difference between formal training and no formal training. You cannot just pick up a saber and do all of that shit - unless you are MaRey of course.

Everything that Luke learned with Yoda, Rey learned with Luke. A basic, spiritual understanding of the Force to guide their way.

And Rey didn't defeat the guards. She defeats one, then almost gets killed while Kylo defeats the rest.

The over the top saber technigues I feel is one of the things the new movies is trying to forget. It just got silly, and I'm glad we've returned to something more grounded and slow paced. In the context of the original trilogy, Luke was clearly supposed to be a Jedi in his prime, not a novice. That's the bench mark the new movies are based of in terms of lightsaber skills.

And even then, there is clearly a world of difference between Rey's rough around the edges self thought fighting style and Kylo Ren's more practiced, traditionally trained approached.

OK, I'm game: what did old man Luke teach Rey exactly? From what I saw, most of her stay was sent trying to convince him to help, then he sat her down, and she suddenly in about ten seconds made a connection with Force that terrified Luke AKA the man who has gone head to head with Vader and Palpatine. She then beat him with his own lightsaber and then left. And I think you need to watch Empire again: Yoda actually walks Luke through it, not just sat him down and tickled his hand with a stick. Oh, and then Luke WENT AWAY FOR A YEAR AND PRACTISED. This last bit seems to be really hard for Rey defenders to understand.

And you feel that the Sequel trilogy has tried to get away form over the top saber moves, herm? Go and watch RLM or Maulers analysis of that fight. Its choreography is every bit like the Prequels, except the Prequels didn't have knives that magically vanish before our eyes so that MaRey wouldn't die. I don't remember the editor having the save Luke or Anakin - funny that.

Luke thought Rey the nature of the Force and how to connect with it, same as Yoda thought Luke.

Rey beat Luke? Seriously? I'm really starting to question whether or not you actually watched the movie.

The sequels fight scenes are lightyears above the prequels, imo. More raw and impactful.

RLM? Really? Their stick was funny 10 years ago, but now their on the same level as cinema sins. Congratulations, you caught an editing mistake after pouring over the scene frame by frame multiple times. Come back when you have a real criticism.

[Draco Dracul]

Love the use of "Ma-Rey Sue." Though I'm curious if these people would apply Mary Sue to where it belongs when it's a male character? Because I've seen some male Mary Sues.

No, because otherwise Luke and especially Anakin would qualify.

Luke and Anakin are not Stu's. A) They both earned their abilities over YEARS of training instead of in a literal week like Rey and B) to say that Anakin - slayer of innocent children, strangler of wife, betrayer of his oath, torturer of prisoners and killer of millions doesn't have a few flaws is frankly the most hilarious thing I have ever heard. Literally, I am not making that up. You could post a Captain Flashheart clip on here right now and I would still laugh less than with what you just wrote.

The sum total of Luke's training is half a day with Obi-Wan and at most a couple weeks with Yoda. Anakin on the other hand is able to win a race it's been deemed impossible for a human to even compete in when he's nine years old and is such a tech genius that he made a pod racer out of scrap as well as C3PO.

Anakins' abilities are counterbalanced by his personality failings along with the fact that other in the 'verse are able to compete with him in the extraordinary stakes, especially when he was a child, and that's what prevents him from being a Stu. They also don't make THAT big a deal out of the fact that he can make a droid or is the only human to have won a podrace (the latter mostly because Star Wars is teeming with other species who can do it no problem, and Anakin had never won or even finished a race in his life prior to that movie).

Then by that logic Rey's ability with the force isn't a problem because the films themselves do not treat it as exceptional or unique. Do note that from what we've been shown in the films use of the force is far more about mindset than actual training.