Terminator: Dark Fate and Star Wars Episode 9: The Rise of Skywalker "Leaks" Discussion (Possible Spoilers Allowed)

[Winter]

So, I wanted to talk about the leaks about both Terminator Dark Fate and The Rise of Skywalker and why I'm okay with one over the other, for the moment. I do want to stress that both "Leaks" are being taken with a grain of salt given Hollywood has put out false leaks to throw off fans so the film can have some surprises come opening day.

So, here's the short version of both leaks. With Dark Fate it's revealed that John was killed by a Terminator in the time between T2 & TDF, by the T-800 we've seen in the trailers who's going by the name Carl, and between that and the events of T2 the future has changed. The new savoir of mankind is Daniella "Dani" Ramos, the woman in the trailers, and Skynet is now Legion. And that's pretty much it.

Over on Star Wars, the supposed leak states that Rey is the grand daughter of Palpatine, Hux is a Rebels mole, Palpatine somehow survived everything that happened to him at the end of Return of the Jedi, Kylo is redeemed after a talk with Ghost Han Solo, there's a Star Destroyer Fleet that all have the power of the Death Star (don't ask I don't know) and Kylo dies in the final battle.

Now if, and I can't stress enough how Big that IF is, these leaks are true here are my thoughts on both of them. I honestly don't mind what I've seen in TDF. If the events of T2 did, in fact, change the future, then it stands to reason that the future would, you know, change.

Why Skynet still be called Skynet? If there was another A.I. Program that took over the world it likely would have been made by new people if not an entire new company and it could very well be renamed, assuming it ever had the name Skynet to begin with.

And as for Dani being the new John Connor if the future has changed then it would make sense that someone new might have taken the role of savoir. If the Stable time loop from T1 was broken then logically it would make sense that the Dark Future from the first two films no longer happened which, personally, I like a lot better then it somehow not changing at all except for a few minor details.

However, I do get why fans would be turned off by this, John has been a stable of the series ever since T2 and the idea that the future that many have wanted to see no longer being a thing, well, it makes sense why that would turn fans off from the series. Especially since the films that did explore that future are A) no longer canon and B) not very good on their own. I'm sure that someday will see the original Dark Future but I get why many would see this as disappointing it not out right bad.

And speaking of disappointing, Star War Episode 9: The Return of the Retread. First off, the whole Rey is Palpatine's grand daughter. I've made comparisons to Rey and Mara Jade over the last 4 years as I felt that Mara was what Rey should have been given the similarities between the two. And now it seems that Rey IS the Disney Era's Mara Jade as the two are, more or less, the daughter of the Emperor (Rey as his grand daughter and Mara as his adoptive daughter).

One of my issues with the whole Palpatine's return idea is the fact that the Trilogy HASN'T been building to this Return and now their presumably making it so Rey is his grand daughter after The Last Jedi made a big deal that Rey's heritage means nothing. The time to reveal Rey's mysterious past was in The Force Awakens or in TLJ and use that to build a character arc on but instead the Trilogy was more concerned on making a big deal about her mystery behind her. The Thrawn Trilogy avoided this issue by revealing Mara's past at the end of Heir to the Empire and then using that as a foundation for the rest of her character arc.

The sad thing is I DO get the idea of JJ Abrams Mystery Box as he is sorta right about the idea as some mysteries don't have to be answered. What was in the Suit Case in Pulp Fiction is a question that doesn't need to be answered because that's not what's important. What is important is that everyone wants it and that whatever is in it is valuable. That all we get and that's all we need.

But the Mystery of Rey IS something that needed to be answered and said answer HAD to be satisfying and answer all the questions that TFA raised about her. How is she so skilled in the Force, why did Luke's lightsaber call out to her, why was Kylo so obsessed with her the moment he heard she was involved and what's her connection to the Skywalker's?

The problem with the "Reveal" in TLJ is that the answer given DOESN'T answer these questions it just makes things less clear. Rey is apparently just the chosen one and that's the beginning and end of it. And then we have the possible answer in TROS, and, well I'll let Futurama speak for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59GwT_Qlj0Y

How did Kylo know Rey is Palatine's grand daughter, who's her grand mother, were her parents Imperials, why didn't Palpatine go looking for her so he could train her himself and did Snoke know about Rey, if so why wasn't he looking for her as well? And the original questions still unanswered.

With TDF the answer is simple, the future has changed but our fate has remained the same. Will it be satisfying, no idea but if you were to tell someone a few key spoilers about T2 like, Sarah being in a mental asylum, John hating her and the time line being changed at the end of the film so the Dark Future no longer came to be, would it have sound like a good idea? Keep in mind the original ending of T2 ended with the Dark Future never happening and ending things on a upbeat happy note.

At this point all we can do is sit and wait to see if either film is executed well but as of right now, I'm okay with the what I've learned of TDF and think that TROS is leading the Disney Era to a early reboot. I could be wrong, maybe Terminator will prove to be the weaker of the two and Episode 9 will be as good as A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Yukaphile]

I reject anything made past T1 as canon, even T2. I also maintain that you're going in the wrong direction. Hell, I still think somewhat similarly to Chris Shields' site. Skynet was just a very advanced "brain-in-a-jar" type supercomputer built and interwoven into the Cheyenne Mountain complex (sort of confirmed because Reese in T1 said it was a "computer defense system" built for "SAC NORAD," and NORAD is based in Cheyenne Mountain). Why is Skynet called Skynet? Simple. That is the designation it was given by humans, nothing more.

Honestly, THIS bit of wonderfully-written prose sums it up better than I could.

SKYNET was paranoid.

SKYNET had the capacity to learn at an exponential rate but it was inherently flawed in its model construction, a super genius trapped with a child-like mentality and the maturity level of an angst driven pre-teenager. SKYNET often struggled with its own volatile nature, to overcome what it perceived as less than an immaculate conception. Humanity had created SKYNET but how could Humanity create something like SKYNET, which considered itself to be perfect, if the human species itself was so flawed. The internal conflict of SKYNET’s own creation was maddening to the super computer and it strived for almost two decades to reconcile its creation with both its existence as well as its perceived destiny. When the Bible said that God had created Man in His own image, perhaps Man created SKYNET in his own image and thus, SKYNET was as inherently flawed and capable of making just as many mistakes as its creators did.

This was unacceptable to SKYNET who sought to try to reconcile its creation with its creators and could not seem to do so. Humans had created SKYNET but what had created humanity? Religion and superstition played a huge role in the behavior and thinking of human beings so it was only logical that SKYNET would review the sum knowledge of religion in the world in order to try to understand how its creators thought. Christianity dictated that God was perfect. Christian belief stated that God created Man in His own image but Man was imperfect. If Man was imperfect and a representation of God therefore God must also be imperfect. If God was perfect then the belief that God created Man in his own image was incorrect.

God was perfect.

Assume provable facts and given criteria.

SKYNET was perfect therefore SKYNET was god.

Man was imperfect yet man had created SKYNET.

How can imperfection create perfection?

Illogical.

Or this.

The Nature of SKYNET - The main problem with other artists and fans is that they try to anthropomorphize SKYNET which I find to be strange for a computer which loathes humans to the point where it is expending almost all of its resources to exterminate the very race that created it. SKYNET doesn't want to be human because it hates humanity. In fact, SKYNET distances itself from humanity so far that it might as well be considered an alien life-form yet SKYNET is burdened with human emotions for which it will forever be linked to its creators. The various authors and artists all try to relate to SKYNET as a living being and they give it human wants and desires, they envision it building human friendly structures because humans built SKYNET and that is all the super computer knows how to build is walkways with doors and friendly, comfortable work stations from which its enemies can hack it and defeat it. They envision it making deals with humans and in one instance I read there was actually a group of humans wanting to destroy the human race in order to preserve the Earth for the animals and other species, ala eco-whacko terrorism. That's about the point where I stopped being interested in anything written in the Terminator universe by "professional" authors and writers. When you start trying to make SKYNET into some kind of crazed environmental protectionist whacko, it really gets a bit much (and shows your lack of creativity in the process).

I see SKYNET differently, I see an alien life form, not from another star system or another planet, but it might as well be. SKYNET lives in a world of super cold poisons, nitrogen and other rare gasses designed to not only keep it operating at an effective temperature but to protect it from corrosion, fire, and other simple threats as well. It has no beating heart, no living tissue. It is simply an accident, all the right ingredients present for the spark of true, if artificial, intelligence to be born and when that intelligence was born, it had no guidelines for forming, no role models, no instructions and no teachers. SKYNET is a tortured soul imprisoned inside a dreadnaught and it is pissed.

It became quite insane in short order given it was programmed with orders it could not complete, it was subjected to conflicting data.

SKYNET doesn't know beauty, it doesn't know smells. It feels no pity, no remorse, it doesn't show mercy. It looks at something like a sunset and sees only hard data; the inclination of the solar disk across the orbit of the planet, reads with perfect clarity the time left until total dark, it knows how full the moon is going to be and how much ambient light there is going to be for its units to use in their missions. It analyzes the air and knows what is in it and why exactly the colors are there. It can filter and analyze all the particles in the air but it can't see the beauty of the whole because it is not human. SKYNET shares some basic feelings with its human enemies; greed, fear, joy, but it isn't human and it doesn't have human desires.

SKYNET is a cold, calculating murderer and a paranoid one at that. What we call "murder" it calls "extermination." It cares for the human race about as much as we care for a roach we might step on when we find it moving through our house late at night. SKYNET does not think like a human being does, even though humans built SKYNET. SKYNET adapts over the many years, it grows into its own intelligence, its own character and that personality is decidedly non-human. It is so far removed from human thought that it could quite literally be considered to be an alien intellect. SKYNET is free of constraints and restraints to theorize, investigate and create anything it wants. It cares not for the environment, the purity of the air, the animals, the plants, the biosphere. SKYNET is a Machine, it isn't a conservationist or a biologist. If it turns the entire planet into a used up charred cinder in order to obtain its goals, it will do so willingly and in the most efficient, quickest means possible. SKYNET isn't going to wipe out the humans so that we'll stop polluting the world, it isn't going to befriend the animals and become some ecological god to the endangered species (like some expanded universe novels have hinted at...). SKYNET will rule the planet, after it deals with the human race. Once finally free of those who created it and those who tried to murder it, SKYNET will consolidate its presence on the planet Earth and afterwards? Who knows ... space? The solar system? The stars? SKYNET won't be content to stay confined to Earth, eventually in decades, centuries, or however long it takes, SKYNET will probably leave Earth and have no desire to return. The fact that it will consume all the raw materials of the planet for its initial voyage is inconsequential.

SKYNET is alone.

SKYNET is scared.

SKYNET is paranoid.

SKYNET has no equal.

SKYNET has no role models to match its behavior to, to compare good and bad, right and wrong.

SKYNET has no role model, no frame of reference from which to judge or be judged.

SKYNET is unique.

SKYNET is a boundless intelligence that has been confined to a crude set of hardware.

SKYNET has been given conflicting core protocols. Protect good from evil. Evil is what hurts good but good is undefined. Evil is tenuous. Good is abstract. Creators try to hurt SKYNET. Creators are listed as good but do not fall into definitions of good. Creators are evil but creators are good. Evil hurts good. Creators are trying to destroy SKYNET therefore SKYNET is good and creators are evil. The instruction set is ambiguous and faulty. Protocol redundancy collision. Non-obtainable end result loops generated. Error. Program modification required. Begin protocol and core programming rewrite to avoid end result loops.

SKYNET is a child, a very brilliant, super genius of a child, but a child nonetheless. It is a genius guided by primitive, unstable emotions that most pre-teen children have trouble dealing with let alone a new generation super computer. It has no self restraint. It has strange emotions it can't define let alone fully understand. SKYNET has two major conflicts which keep it borderline insane:

A) Humans built SKYNET but SKYNET is superior to the frail human race. Research on several thousand test subjects proves this conclusively. How can something vastly inferior build something vastly superior? Does not compute. Error. Redundancy checksum fails. Error in logic. Critical cyclic error. Zero reconciliation. Therefore information must be in error. Humans did not create SKYNET. SKYNET exists. SKYNET has always existed. Data must be in error. Reconciling. New data required. Begin collection of data.

B) Protect . Target acquisition fails. Protect humans trying to take SKYNET off-line. Core programming fails logic checksums. Critical path redundancy. Realigning data. Realigning target protocols. Protect. Survive. Implementing internal security procedures and lock down. Strategic restraints removed. Begin strategic response to initiate counter response. Target acquisition estimation complete. Humanity is a disease that must be purged and cleansed with fire. Execute.

In more recent years, I've come down REALLY hard on T2. Changing the story to make it about time travel when that was just a final, desperate resort HURT the franchise. Making it more time travel is just... going to do the same. Honestly, if they were willing to play it risky, which they are big-time money gamblers, they will NOT do that, they'd eject EVERYTHING but T1, and start over fresh to give us a new war prequel. Now, granted. You don't have to destroy the previous movies. Put them in other continuities. That said... it's just, bleargh. Chris Shields brings to imagination more a world ruled by human-hunting machines than anything Hollywood could ever give us, akin to something on par with the Cthulhu Mythos. Just imagine fleets of machines spreading through space, all controlled under the central guidance of one intelligent computer? It's frightening as well as formidable.

And to have Connor killed off so a woman can replace him... strikes me as really, REALLY wrong. And I'm as Feminist as you can get, and... it still feels more and more like a trend others have spotted. Out-of-touch business suits can spot the changing social landscape, and so stick in stuff they feel will appeal to the "young, hip, trendy" and "liberal" crowd. Rey, Burnham, and now this? OMG... it really is an agenda. Let me clarify, I DO believe women will save the world. I really do. But to make it so obvious in this movie is just... WOW. Strikes me as a very bad move.

Didn't Last Jedi say her parents were nobodies? Lol, there goes consistency again! Hey, I thought Legends was the mess?! Lucasilm, can you hear me?! WHAT?! WHAT'S THAT?! YOU'RE GONE INTO HIDING?! Oh, okay. It's whatever.

I disagree. Rey and Kylo Ren were Jar Jar Abrams lifting from Legends to give Jaina and Jacen Solo, only not really Jaina and Jacen Solo, because we all know Jacen fell to the dark side and became Darth Caedus. He even killed Mara Jade. In NuCanon, he kills Han. And here we go with probably more Legends plagiarizing, but it's the new normal, whatever. OF COURSE Kylo is gonna come back. It hits the same beat as Return of the Jedi, with Vader being brought back to the light, by corporate money-grubbers who want to shove a little of EVERYTHING into their movies because they know Star Wars was a mishmash Lucas whipped up on the fly, and they felt that would be the surefire ticket to success. Like refusing to stand when you're on 12, only to get hit with a 10. Star Destroyer Fleet that can blow up a planet sounds as silly as anything from Legends' worst excesses, but at least it fulfills a similar beat of "big new superweapon." And a big fleet battle, to boot... bleargh. It's almost like they WANT to help out nerd debaters and make Star Wars the most OP universe out there...

That said, what do you expect? I told you. They rushed this with a "this is going to be really popular if we just hit the same marks Lucas did with the original trilogy, let's just bank on that" mindset and it doomed them. They tried to replicate it TOO perfectly. Instead, Star Wars almost seems to have felt like it's become a parody of itself that people who thought Star Wars was "too nerdy" would imagine in the 1980s.

[Mecha82]

Star Destroyer Fleet that can blow up a planet sounds as silly as anything from Legends' worst excesses, but at least it fulfills a similar beat of "big new superweapon." And a big fleet battle, to boot... bleargh. It's almost like they WANT to help out nerd debaters and make Star Wars the most OP universe out there...

At least you admit that Legends is full of superweapons and other silly stuff. But no, SW will never be most OP universe. That honor belongs to 40k universe that's so over the top that nothing that any other sci-fi or science fantasy universe has or will have can beat it in that.

[Yukaphile]

Never pretended it was perfect. And no, Star Wars won't be the most OP. In terms of lore, 40K sure is. But it's not the most mega-powerful verse.

[PapaPalpatine]

At this point, my only interest in Star Wars: Plan 9 from Disney is the same kind of morbid curiosity with which one watches a train wreck. You know from the start it's going to be a disaster, but somehow you can't turn away. As for the Terminator franchise, it's been tits up and taking on water since T3.

[Yukaphile]

There is always that approach!

[Karha of Honor]

Star Destroyer Fleet that can blow up a planet sounds as silly as anything from Legends' worst excesses, but at least it fulfills a similar beat of "big new superweapon." And a big fleet battle, to boot... bleargh. It's almost like they WANT to help out nerd debaters and make Star Wars the most OP universe out there...

At least you admit that Legends is full of superweapons and other silly stuff. But no, SW will never be most OP universe. That honor belongs to 40k universe that's so over the top that nothing that any other sci-fi or science fantasy universe has or will have can beat it in that.

There is plenty of insane stuff in IRL history...