The term "Mary Sue" needs to die.

[Meushell]

The term is over used. I got tired of it from forum RPGs because it seemed to apply to just about every character.

As for Rey, I don't think she's any worse than Akakin or Luke. Star Wars seems to want to sort of outdo itself, and we see that in the characters.

I dunno that the whole 'Star Wars writers needed to make Rey overpowered so nobody thinks they're sexist' theory holds up in light of Rogue One, though. I mean, nobody is going to accuse Jyn Erso of being anything but awesome. She's incredibly driven, superbly skilled at the things she's good at, and moves everyone around her as necessary to accomplish her goals. But at the same time, she's hardly a super-hero. Rook does the flying. K2 does the hacking. Imwe handles the force stuff. None of this detracts from Jyn's awesomeness....just the opposite. Because she has weaknesses and grows throughout the story, we get to share more deeply in her character and immerse ourselves more completely in her world. So clearly the Star Wars folks CAN write a female protagonist just fine.

Jyn was accused of being a Sue by many before the movie was even out. Less so after the movie came out.

[Jason Hallett]

In the hopes of saving a worthwhile topic of discussion from being smothered by a single argument, I'll give my opinion without any mention of the Star Wars franchise.

I hew a lot closer to Seanan MacGuire's view than any of its critics I've seen in this thread so far -- the double standards that apply to women in fiction are obvious to all but the wilfully blind, and mirror sexist behaviours in real life. Expertise is questioned baselessly; tragedies that, in men's backstories, evoke empathy invite belittlement when women suffer them; excellence is met with loud disbelief.

I kind of feel sorry for people who can't accept these things. For those familiar with the Stormlight Archive, imagine reading of Shallan Davar's heartbreaking losses (of both loved ones and her own innocence) and refusal to break, her determination to continue spreading hope to all she meets, bringing out their best selves on her quest to learn everything there is to know and also save the world -- and concluding that all that is some bullshit cause how could that kid possibly do all that, huh? That's just sad, isn't it?

[Admiral X]

Which is our point.

Which in no way invalidates the term or indicates that it "needs to die."

[Karha of Honor]

In the hopes of saving a worthwhile topic of discussion from being smothered by a single argument, I'll give my opinion without any mention of the Star Wars franchise.

I hew a lot closer to Seanan MacGuire's view than any of its critics I've seen in this thread so far -- the double standards that apply to women in fiction are obvious to all but the wilfully blind, and mirror sexist behaviours in real life. Expertise is questioned baselessly; tragedies that, in men's backstories, evoke empathy invite belittlement when women suffer them; excellence is met with loud disbelief.

I kind of feel sorry for people who can't accept these things. For those familiar with the Stormlight Archive, imagine reading of Shallan Davar's heartbreaking losses (of both loved ones and her own innocence) and refusal to break, her determination to continue spreading hope to all she meets, bringing out their best selves on her quest to learn everything there is to know and also save the world -- and concluding that all that is some bullshit cause how could that kid possibly do all that, huh? That's just sad, isn't it?

Here is the deal, real life gunfights, gang brawls and fist fights are sexist because of nature/evolution. Women can carry less weight, get dominated in pro sports when faced with the best male athletes etc... I like me some fictional Amazon ass kicking but when survival mode kicks in it's understandable why the male perspective would be dominant.

[MithrandirOlorin]

Well I know first hand that it is realistic for a woman to wind up having every guy she knows fall in love with her. Yet simply that happening is considered a Mary Sue trait.

[Karha of Honor]

Well I know first hand that it is realistic for a woman to wind up having every guy she knows fall in love with her. Yet simply that happening is considered a Mary Sue trait.

Depends on the charisma stats of the males.


Also i assume we were talking about action and adeventure movies.

[Fixer]

I've written my fair share of Mary Sues in my time. Mostly based on my own super-awesome D&D characters when I truly knew how to break the rules system or Star Wars fanfics based on X-Wing. Back in that time I hadn't actually heard the term "Mary Sue", it was still mostly contained to the Star Trek fandom but people were at least kind enough to point out my shitty writing, though I had taken it personally. Eventually I learned the mistakes I was making thanks to this criticism and moved onto to better work.

When I was investing more in 40K that's when I came familiar with the term. Mostly from anything written about Matt Ward's Ultramarines and the one true sue, Kaldor Draigo. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Kaldor_Draigo

It's a phase nearly all new writers go through. I was listening to Yahtzee's drown out videos while he was still making them and he spoke of his own self-insert character for Red Dwarf fanfics.

Mary/Marty Sue has become a pretty wide all-encompassing term for poorly written fan-fic, or fan-fic style characters. When you can cover why a character is poorly written in such a way, it's useful criticism. I'm personally thankful for the criticism friends and fellow writers gave me years ago. Without it, I would never have improved.

That's why, the term needs to stay.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

In the hopes of saving a worthwhile topic of discussion from being smothered by a single argument, I'll give my opinion without any mention of the Star Wars franchise.

I hew a lot closer to Seanan MacGuire's view than any of its critics I've seen in this thread so far -- the double standards that apply to women in fiction are obvious to all but the wilfully blind, and mirror sexist behaviours in real life. Expertise is questioned baselessly; tragedies that, in men's backstories, evoke empathy invite belittlement when women suffer them; excellence is met with loud disbelief.

I kind of feel sorry for people who can't accept these things. For those familiar with the Stormlight Archive, imagine reading of Shallan Davar's heartbreaking losses (of both loved ones and her own innocence) and refusal to break, her determination to continue spreading hope to all she meets, bringing out their best selves on her quest to learn everything there is to know and also save the world -- and concluding that all that is some bullshit cause how could that kid possibly do all that, huh? That's just sad, isn't it?

Here is the deal, real life gunfights, gang brawls and fist fights are sexist because of nature/evolution. Women can carry less weight, get dominated in pro sports when faced with the best male athletes etc... I like me some fictional Amazon ass kicking but when survival mode kicks in it's understandable why the male perspective would be dominant.

Demonstrably false. You know the REAL reason sports are sex-segregated? One gal got too good at baseball, and everyone was afraid about the sociological fallout of a GIRL being BETTER at SPORTS.

Even in fights to the death, muscle mass isn't the only consideration. We have to factor in pain threshold, endurance, flexibility, agility, etc.

[Karha of Honor]

In the hopes of saving a worthwhile topic of discussion from being smothered by a single argument, I'll give my opinion without any mention of the Star Wars franchise.

I hew a lot closer to Seanan MacGuire's view than any of its critics I've seen in this thread so far -- the double standards that apply to women in fiction are obvious to all but the wilfully blind, and mirror sexist behaviours in real life. Expertise is questioned baselessly; tragedies that, in men's backstories, evoke empathy invite belittlement when women suffer them; excellence is met with loud disbelief.

I kind of feel sorry for people who can't accept these things. For those familiar with the Stormlight Archive, imagine reading of Shallan Davar's heartbreaking losses (of both loved ones and her own innocence) and refusal to break, her determination to continue spreading hope to all she meets, bringing out their best selves on her quest to learn everything there is to know and also save the world -- and concluding that all that is some bullshit cause how could that kid possibly do all that, huh? That's just sad, isn't it?

Here is the deal, real life gunfights, gang brawls and fist fights are sexist because of nature/evolution. Women can carry less weight, get dominated in pro sports when faced with the best male athletes etc... I like me some fictional Amazon ass kicking but when survival mode kicks in it's understandable why the male perspective would be dominant.

Demonstrably false. You know the REAL reason sports are sex-segregated? One gal got too good at baseball, and everyone was afraid about the sociological fallout of a GIRL being BETTER at SPORTS.

Even in fights to the death, muscle mass isn't the only consideration. We have to factor in pain threshold, endurance, flexibility, agility, etc.

Wasn't that one gal a giant anomaly?

How many women sitting in prison right now vs how many women?

[Admiral X]

What does muscle mass or any of that have to do with how characters are written?