The Evolution of Mythos: Blue/Red Superman and the "End" of the Jedi... Yes That Does Make Sense

[Link8909]

however personally the deconstruction of the Jedi that is presented most times has come across as villainization, that the Jedi are no better than the Sith, and a belittling of the Jedi philosophy, and that for me personally is flawed, this ignores all of the good that the Jedi have done and represent,

It's interesting how that developed. It goes back a ways and has literally been the driving force behind the creation of large sites, like stardestroyer.net.

Even the manner which KOTOR 2 handled it was harsh, but that is understandable given the fact that you're getting poison poured in your ear by the ultimate villain of the story. I very much prefer the Star Trek DS9 take where it loyally, but effectively criticized the Federation without just sneering at it.

Definitely, “In The Pale Moonlight” has to be my personal favourite episode of Deep Space Nine because of this, showing that sometimes doing the right thing isn’t the good or moral thing to do, but when one exhausts their options is sometime the only option, and you end up losing a peace of your soul in the process because of those choices.

Star Trek Beyond was also great at deconstructing Star Trek and it’s mission of exploration as SFDebris pointed out in his review, and I like that Kirk’s belief in Starfleet was tested during the film and by the end his belief in Starfleet was stronger than ever, also I had know idea about the subtext of the deconstruction of Star Trek in Beyond until SFDebris pointed it out in his review, which makes a lot of sense in hindsight since the film came out during Star Treks 50th anniversary.

[Nealithi]

Well let me address something mentioned but not gone into depth about. Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are all very different than when they began. But it is from proper evolution to Hollywood evolution.
To explain the early characters were less powerful or had cringe worthy weaknesses. Slowly over the decades these things would fade into the background and be forgotten as the character evolved and the improved traits stuck while bad ones fell away. Modern writers try to put the same alterations at the snap of the fingers and they go against the grain. Chuck has brought up evolution in a few videos. One he mentions the gentle incline that evolution requires (discussing the whale probe) and that we are not Pokémon (in Threshold). To me this is the reason these alterations fail. They try too hard and too fast. So they do not stick.

As to jedi always helping others etc. I feel the prequels really did them a disservice in this light. They dismissed Anakin from any training. Yet the force is known to be able to slip the leash sometimes. Shouldn't the all benevolent jedi give him some training to keep him from turning into a sith? Or was being an older force sensitive a death sentence? They never went into it. They just seemed cold and only concerned about themselves. Later Anakin sees someone he cares about will die. Do not probe the vision and try to change the event. Don't try to save a life, if possible. Just let them die. How is this helping others? Why would a jedi study healing then if they should just 'let it happen' as it were?
Kreia did not come across as insightful to me. Her version of things was do not be cruel, do not be good. Just keep your head down and do your thing. And that seemed wrong somehow.

And the follow up series. I think Luke's idea to destroy the ancient jedi texts could have been seen as him trying to break a cycle of revenge that has darkened the galaxy for millennia. But it was done too quick and with too little build up to make the point in any direction. And all the short cuts just hurt the characters. Which is why the sequel movies are not considered as good as the previous ones.

[Link8909]

Well let me address something mentioned but not gone into depth about. Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are all very different than when they began. But it is from proper evolution to Hollywood evolution.
To explain the early characters were less powerful or had cringe worthy weaknesses. Slowly over the decades these things would fade into the background and be forgotten as the character evolved and the improved traits stuck while bad ones fell away. Modern writers try to put the same alterations at the snap of the fingers and they go against the grain. Chuck has brought up evolution in a few videos. One he mentions the gentle incline that evolution requires (discussing the whale probe) and that we are not Pokémon (in Threshold). To me this is the reason these alterations fail. They try too hard and too fast. So they do not stick.

As to jedi always helping others etc. I feel the prequels really did them a disservice in this light. They dismissed Anakin from any training. Yet the force is known to be able to slip the leash sometimes. Shouldn't the all benevolent jedi give him some training to keep him from turning into a sith? Or was being an older force sensitive a death sentence? They never went into it. They just seemed cold and only concerned about themselves. Later Anakin sees someone he cares about will die. Do not probe the vision and try to change the event. Don't try to save a life, if possible. Just let them die. How is this helping others? Why would a jedi study healing then if they should just 'let it happen' as it were?
Kreia did not come across as insightful to me. Her version of things was do not be cruel, do not be good. Just keep your head down and do your thing. And that seemed wrong somehow.

And the follow up series. I think Luke's idea to destroy the ancient jedi texts could have been seen as him trying to break a cycle of revenge that has darkened the galaxy for millennia. But it was done too quick and with too little build up to make the point in any direction. And all the short cuts just hurt the characters. Which is why the sequel movies are not considered as good as the previous ones.

I definitely agree with you on the Prequels and Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords, the way Obi Wan Kenobi describes the Jedi in A New Hope makes me think the Jedi were similar to Knights, righting the wrongs of the galaxy, defending the weak and being a symbol of hope to people, while I don't mind what the Jedi were in the Prequels, the way they where presented came across as them looking arrogant, and their philosophy as dogmatic, which as you say did not to them justice, and for me seem to start the deconstruction of the Jedi that seemed to be more focused on belittling if not outright villainizing them than actually questioning the importance of their role as gradians of peace.

Its why I'm thoroughly enjoying playing a Jedi Consular in Star Wars The Old Republic, I really do feel like being a Jedi is a good thing, that I'm making the galaxy a better and safer place instead of being a pariah, that I'm a symbol of hope.

[Nealithi]

I definitely agree with you on the Prequels and Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords, the way Obi Wan Kenobi describes the Jedi in A New Hope makes me think the Jedi were similar to Knights, righting the wrongs of the galaxy, defending the weak and being a symbol of hope to people, while I don't mind what the Jedi were in the Prequels, the way they where presented came across as them looking arrogant, and their philosophy as dogmatic, which as you say did not to them justice, and for me seem to start the deconstruction of the Jedi that seemed to be more focused on belittling if not outright villainizing them than actually questioning the importance of their role as gradians of peace.

Its why I'm thoroughly enjoying playing a Jedi Consular in Star Wars The Old Republic, I really do feel like being a Jedi is a good thing, that I'm making the galaxy a better and safer place instead of being a pariah, that I'm a symbol of hope.

That is a fun one and feels very just. I caution on playing a light side sith sorcerer though. The jedi there come across more as deceptive bad guys than heroes.

[Link8909]

That is a fun one and feels very just. I caution on playing a light side sith sorcerer though. The jedi there come across more as deceptive bad guys than heroes.

Thank you for the heads up, back when I was playing Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2 or play any game that gives dialog options I’ve never been able to pick the mean or moral compromising option, I've always felt bad about hurting the NPCs that way, I just don’t have it in my heart, I'll give it a try though when I start a Sith Sorcerer, maybe it will be easy if I get into the mindset of Dethklok.

[Beastro]

As to jedi always helping others etc. I feel the prequels really did them a disservice in this light. They dismissed Anakin from any training. Yet the force is known to be able to slip the leash sometimes. Shouldn't the all benevolent jedi give him some training to keep him from turning into a sith? Or was being an older force sensitive a death sentence? They never went into it. They just seemed cold and only concerned about themselves. Later Anakin sees someone he cares about will die. Do not probe the vision and try to change the event. Don't try to save a life, if possible. Just let them die. How is this helping others? Why would a jedi study healing then if they should just 'let it happen' as it were?

It could have been more than just a disservice, it could have been a chance to show how they had lost sight of their goal as protectors of the Republic enough for their actions to play into their own downfall by how they treat him. The only problem is it's never showed that the Jedi by that point had fallen into blindness, especially Yoda and his central role both in the Jedi Order and the treatment of Anakin.

The Prequels should have shown the Jedi as decent and solidly good, but stagnant, rigid, too certain of the rightness and dominance of the Force and willfully ignorant of the building threat plotting against them. The movies tried doing that a bit, but they should have really hit the nail on the head. I wonder why Lucas didn't do that. Maybe he fell in love with the Jedi too much to show them in all their glory as compromised. IMO, he lost sight of properly anchoring the Prequels in a mythological structure enough and should have done more with the age old Osiris Myth archtype he was playing with.

[Nealithi]

That is a fun one and feels very just. I caution on playing a light side sith sorcerer though. The jedi there come across more as deceptive bad guys than heroes.

Thank you for the heads up, back when I was playing Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2 or play any game that gives dialog options I’ve never been able to pick the mean or moral compromising option, I've always felt bad about hurting the NPCs that way, I just don’t have it in my heart, I'll give it a try though when I start a Sith Sorcerer, maybe it will be easy if I get into the mindset of Dethklok.

Oh I am not trying to say don't play light side. I have issues playing darkside as well. Mostly because the 'dark' options seem to be trying to hard. Not cold and ruthless. But cartoon 'villainy' type. And it feels less doing dark things than being a jerk for the heck of it.
My caution is that the light side sith sorcerer can look more light and noble than the jedi in their quests.

[Link8909]

That is a fun one and feels very just. I caution on playing a light side sith sorcerer though. The jedi there come across more as deceptive bad guys than heroes.

Thank you for the heads up, back when I was playing Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2 or play any game that gives dialog options I’ve never been able to pick the mean or moral compromising option, I've always felt bad about hurting the NPCs that way, I just don’t have it in my heart, I'll give it a try though when I start a Sith Sorcerer, maybe it will be easy if I get into the mindset of Dethklok.

Oh I am not trying to say don't play light side. I have issues playing darkside as well. Mostly because the 'dark' options seem to be trying to hard. Not cold and ruthless. But cartoon 'villainy' type. And it feels less doing dark things than being a jerk for the heck of it.
My caution is that the light side sith sorcerer can look more light and noble than the jedi in their quests.

Ah, ok, still, thank you for the heads up.

[Zargon]

"Superman, as a knight in shining armor/boy scout just isn't as mature and or as realistic as say, Batman or Marvel Comics. In order for Superman to Survive he needs to become more real and needs to be more human."

I'm not sure why you'd think Superman being a good wholesome traditional good alpha male American is "not mature or realistic". The problem is most writers and Hollywood types are not that, so they hate that type of hero. The simple fact that Superman simply helps people goes against their views. And not to mention all the other classic Superman views like "hard work is needed to get what you want", as opposed to the "be a cry baby and whine for free stuff".

And Superman has had the big problem of being made anti American or you know "um just a guy from a country", because many folks hate America. Superman is as real and human as a character can get: he grew up in the Heartland of the US of A. He is not a radical anti American coastal elite.

The Force is exactly the same. The Classic Force is Pure Good, as defined by Classic Good (being nice and kind and smiting evil). If you use the Classic Force, you must use it for Classic Good: anything else and you turn to the dark side OF that Force(but it's not a force of it's own in anyway).

Of course the "new viewpoint" is that a person can do anything they want to and just say it's good or bad or nothing. So a force user must also be able to use the Force in anyway...with no judgments. So a Force user did not like a statue (on public property) they could just zap it and laugh "I'm a good guy hahahahahah!" Whatever random thing a force user does on a whim is good...if they want to say it is. This is where the idea of two Forces comes in, both the same power, but equal and opposite....but with no good or evil judgments.