I really haven't changed my opinion aside from one thing, I so disliked "Rogue One" and found "Solo" so unnecessary (tho entertaining) that my optimism for the franchise has drained away.
Did not care for them rolling back all the plans they had for Rise of Skywalker (ostensible) because "fans" bitched about "The Last Jedi" (which I like more than "Awakens").
I never understand people's complaints about the sequel trilogy. They say things that they think are obvious, like the premise of this thread, and I do not agree with at all.
At a certain point I have to assume that they dislike the movies for other reasons that they are not self critical/aware enough to understand. They think, "I disliked this movie, I like good movies, ergo this is a bad movie" when the more logical thought should be, "I disliked this movie, it must just not be for me."
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BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:12 pm
I think Kylo Ren is hardly the worst thing of the sequel trilogy.
It's the same kind of misfiring, but Shnzon wouldn't have been able to hold three Star Trek movies as well as Ren did.
Exactly. Shinzon was hardly even enough of a character to carry one film. Kylo Ren was written OK for one and a half films and Adam Driver needs a medal for seeing the rest of it through.
When they say that Driver carried the entire sequel trilogy on his back, it's because in each scene he was the one setting the pace and bringing the bulk of the soul and character depth. Especially as he was often splitting the screen with Rey, whose MO was to just kinda sit there and look stoic.
On the other hand Shinzon is just another villain of the week, only around to twirl a mustache then die at the end. Now, the fact he managed to chew scenery at all is comparatively notable for The Next Generation, so often sterile and introspective, a show where melodramatic characters were few and far between. Compared to the TV guests, Shinzon's turmoil is definitely somewhere out beyond Tin Man levels. But it's not especially standout from among the other film villains, particularly Soran and Ru'afo.
Tom Hardy brought a lot of energy to the role, and given that Nemesis was the gravestone of the film career for almost everyone else who touched it, it was cool to see Tom Hardy go on to do bigger things. It may not be fair to compare Shinzon to Kylo, but there IS a Tom Hardy role that could be a whole trilogy of films. You've got to be talking about Bane!
For solo film (not that Solo film), Shinzon is the worst villain. To put it simply, they had no idea what to do with this villain, other than "well if WoK was good, let's do it again for the nth time". He's just your typical angry 30-year old white guy that still acts like a teenager. Aka the least interesting type of villain, especially when no proper motivation is given. Yes, he was thrown in the mines with the Halloween Nosferatu workers, but rather than explore that backstory and see him rise up from nothing to leading the Reman liberation, we'll just throw in a quick flashback and call it a day, we need more PG-13 rape scenes dammit. Oh and Stewart wants to drive some shitty car. And we need to run all this cash on more pointless special effects, because our Death Star should have lots of moving parts. While Shinzon was bad, he was forgettable and the only main character that gets killed, only dies because he jumped through a series of plot holes, barely related to the villain, so the villain's impact to the main characters was limited.
For the whole series, Kylo Ren without a doubt. Rather than not giving a good reason why he even turned to the Dark Side, they just throw in a bunch of contradictory reasons: "I hate my parents because I hate my parents because that's how hate works"; "I will finish that my granddaddy started, whatever that is"; "The Light side is tempting except it's not"; "Snoke corrupted out boy and no one noticed that, no wait it was actually Palpatine, because he can now do anything"; "I looked in his mind and he was completely gone but no one's ever really gone"; "I woke up and saw my uncle holding an active lightsaber but rather than ask him what's going on since I just woke up, I'll just instinctively attack him and then proceed to kill everyone and then blame it all on him"; "Have I mentioned that I'm angry today?"; "Fuck bothsides of the Force, no wait, I still like the Dark side, oops"; "I AM ANGRY! rawrrawr..."; "Hey there sexy, wanna see my Dark Side?"
The first film from the trilogy doesn't give us much backstory on his motivations, which, unlike the first SW film, are kind of needed since it's a followup and people need to know what's new to the table, instead we got mystery boxes. The second film tries to throw in some shades of gray, but the only sting it threw was brown shit all over the franchise. Kylo is set to change the dynamics of how people perceive the Force, only for 5 minutes later to be thrown into the trash and Kylo is yet again an angry idiot. The third film tries as much as possible to ignore the second to remake his backstory from the first, only he didn't have a proper backstory in the first place, so it just pressed the emergency Palpatine button and made everything yet another Xanatos gambit complete with a whole fleet of Asspull-class Star Destroyers that Palpatine wanted to give to Kylo Ren because the guy that runs the First Order who has control over the entire galaxy suddenly needs another fleet.
Shinzon only had one film, so if he failed as a character that's it, it's over. You can't go back and change that unless you resurrect the character or something in the next film. Only deleted scenes could salvage his character if those count. But the Disney Trilogy was, well, three films. Made 2 years apart from each other. After almost three years of pre-production for the first film. JJ, Rian and their boyband had plenty of time to fix Kylo Ren's character and other story issues. Except they didn't. They just carried on with the "rawr rawr aim engri" persona, and he didn't grow in any significant or visible way.
I really haven't changed my opinion aside from one thing, I so disliked "Rogue One" and found "Solo" so unnecessary (tho entertaining) that my optimism for the franchise has drained away.
Did not care for them rolling back all the plans they had for Rise of Skywalker (ostensible) because "fans" bitched about "The Last Jedi" (which I like more than "Awakens").
I never understand people's complaints about the sequel trilogy. They say things that they think are obvious, like the premise of this thread, and I do not agree with at all.
At a certain point I have to assume that they dislike the movies for other reasons that they are not self critical/aware enough to understand. They think, "I disliked this movie, I like good movies, ergo this is a bad movie" when the more logical thought should be, "I disliked this movie, it must just not be for me."
Indeed, there are aspects of the Sequel Trilogy that I like and dislike, much like with both the Prequel and Original Trilogy and the franchise as a whole, but I'm hard pressed to say that the Sequel Trilogy is bad, I just feel it's not taping into the full potential that it was given, and that more of a personal felling my part, I'm sure much like with the Prequel Trilogy there are fans of all three films that in years to come are going to gush over and without them never became Star Wars fans to begin with.
"I think, when one has been angry for a very long time, one gets used to it. And it becomes comfortable like…like old leather. And finally… it becomes so familiar that one can't remember feeling any other way."
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:12 pm
I think Kylo Ren is hardly the worst thing of the sequel trilogy.
It's the same kind of misfiring, but Shnzon wouldn't have been able to hold three Star Trek movies as well as Ren did.
Exactly. Shinzon was hardly even enough of a character to carry one film. Kylo Ren was written OK for one and a half films and Adam Driver needs a medal for seeing the rest of it through.
When they say that Driver carried the entire sequel trilogy on his back, it's because in each scene he was the one setting the pace and bringing the bulk of the soul and character depth. Especially as he was often splitting the screen with Rey, whose MO was to just kinda sit there and look stoic.
On the other hand Shinzon is just another villain of the week, only around to twirl a mustache then die at the end. Now, the fact he managed to chew scenery at all is comparatively notable for The Next Generation, so often sterile and introspective, a show where melodramatic characters were few and far between. Compared to the TV guests, Shinzon's turmoil is definitely somewhere out beyond Tin Man levels. But it's not especially standout from among the other film villains, particularly Soran and Ru'afo.
Tom Hardy brought a lot of energy to the role, and given that Nemesis was the gravestone of the film career for almost everyone else who touched it, it was cool to see Tom Hardy go on to do bigger things. It may not be fair to compare Shinzon to Kylo, but there IS a Tom Hardy role that could be a whole trilogy of films. You've got to be talking about Bane!
Bane vs. Kylo? Bane. Hands down.
Thank you. I will back this as my submission to the thread. Thank you, Cleveland.
