A Criticism of the Prequel Trilogy That Kinda Bugs Me

[Winter]

You forgot one critical point about Kylo Ren: His mother, Leia. The fact that he could not commit to killing her showed that she was the one element that could possibly reawaken the Ben inside of him. I suspect that had Carrie Fisher not passed away that scene with Han would have actually been her instead projecting herself, giving her last ounce of energy to be able to communicate with him and then her passing pulls him back into the light. Instead it’s more of a series of events that brings back Ben, where her passing makes him pause for Rey to strike, then Rey’s act of kindness by healing his wound (and perhaps his soul?) starts to make him question himself, and then finally the scene with Han is what ultimately brings back Ben.

I mentioned before, I was not on board the idea of Kylo Ren turning good. But at the way it was handled in TROS turned me around on that, and is probably the strongest element in that film. I wish the rest of the film was as good as that.

One problem with this, he was going to kill her at the end of TLJ's forth act AND had no problem with letting the two tie-fighters kill her. And even with that I'm not buying it, one talk with his mom is all it took for him to turn from the Dark Side? One thing that I like about TPT is that it, IMHO, adds to Vader's redemption. Without TPT it's just one movie that builds up to his redemption but with TPT in mind then it fits with his arc from TPT as what caused him to fall to the dark side was his desire to save his wife and unborn children and what brings him back to the light was his love for his son.

Also keep in mind is that Anakin was basically fighting against death and tried to become as powerful as possible to overcome it to hold onto what he loved. But, at the end of TOT he is able to save his son not through becoming more powerful but just by doing the right thing when it he could. And his death, again IMHO, becomes more meaningful as it ties into what Yoda said. He doesn't tell Luke to mourn him or to save him he tells him to let him go only asking that Leia know that Luke was right that there was good in him.

But with Kylo, he became evil because he thought the Dark Side was cool until ROS retconned that into it being that Palpatine was every voice in Kylo's head which takes ALL his agency away from him. He didn't choose to be evil the voices in his head made him do it. And.. they didn't actually do anything with this, he learns that he has been manipulated by Palpatine his entire life and he just sorta shrugs it off and goes about his business.

Again, to contrast this with TPT, the scene where Palpatine revealed that he is the Sith Lord behind everything it's treated as a major moment both in the plot and Anakin's arc. He draws his weapon on Palpatine, he tells Windu, he struggles with what Palpatine has told him and this kicks off the Genocide of the Jedi.

But Palpatine was behind everything including Kylo's downfall, treated with a "Oh, hey did we mention that the OG Big Bad was the real master mind behind it all? Small universe isn't it." Linkara, if you're reading this, feel free to use that quote, you don't even need to mention it was me who created it.

Switching to She-Ra for a moment, one of the themes of that show is to take responsibility for your actions. Even if someone mistreated you when you were a child that doesn't excuse your actions. No one is forcing you to do anything and blaming others for your mistakes when you knew what this would do is BS and you'll need to live with your actions.

But back on subject. Kylo's love for his mom is nice and all but him just turning to the good side because she finally gave him a call is frankly lazy writing in both versions of Episode 9 and in both cases most seem to agree that said redemption feels unearned because it's literally a case of

Leia/Han: Be good now.
Kylo Ren/Ben Solo: Okay.

[McAvoy]

Prequels to me has its issues. We all know that. Me personally I have a hard time believing the Anakin we saw in the movies become Darth Vader we see in the Original Trilogy.

In the prequels, Anakin is whiny and his motivations to go to the Dark Side is thin. Visions? Not buying it. I'd rather see Anakin as this badass confident fighter who is tempted by the Dark Side alot due to his pride and ego. Whereas that temptation is tempered by his wife and his love for her. I'd would have wanted to see a full realization of that personally.

That being said, the Sequel Trilogy is just a huge mess. First move had potential even if too much like New Hope. Last Jedi could have easily been tweaked a bit to be a prequel movie to Force Awakens. Rise of the Skywalker is just a huge mess.

To me, comparing the two or even the three Trilogies just doesn't work. All three have their own issues and unique to them. You have to look at them individually and yet at the same time all at the same time since they are supposed to be connected to each other.

[Thebestoftherest]

I think part of why there are fans more accepting of something like Reylo has everything to do with the chemistry between Ridley and Driver, whereas the chemistry between Portman and Christensen was practically non-existent. To sum it up, it's all about the execution rather than the ideas.

For what it's worth, I rank TROS at #6 and ROTS at #7. While I'm sure there could have been a story in that film that is conceptually better than what TROS offered, it's done so poorly that its inherent value is moot. TROS is at the very bottom as far as the Originals and Sequels are concerned, but unlike the prequels, it's at least enjoyable to watch in terms of acting, directing, production, etc. There's a certain energy to those films that's utterly lacking in the prequels. Adam Driver as an actor manages to do more in the last 20 minutes as Ben Solo with zero dialogue more than Hayden Christensen did in two whole films. I was completely against the idea of Kylo Ren being redeemed before TROS came out, but purely because of Driver's acting he not only turned me around on that but made me wish Ben Solo had actually lived so that there could have been more opportunities to take like Ben facing his crimes in trial or even just exiling himself and trying to atone for something he never can. But because of Abrams' short sightedness, that can never happen unless a filmmaker decides to have the Force bring back Ben Solo from the dead, which I would be all in for just because Adam Driver is THAT good of an actor.

I thought the other day how interesting it would have been if Hayden as Anakin would have appeared instead of Ford as Han during Ben returning to the light. Kylo's been asking for guidance from Vader, only for Anakin to give guidance to Ben, and that's what helps bring him back to the light. "Finish what I started" (defeat the Emperor) which would have been pretty profound on a thematic level. But then again, it wouldn't have been as good as the scene with Ford, because Christensen just isn't that good of an actor and wouldn't have stood well next to Driver. That's why it was ultimately wiser to just bring back Ford as a "memory".

Out of curiosity what #8 and 9?

[Thebestoftherest]

Prequels to me has its issues. We all know that. Me personally I have a hard time believing the Anakin we saw in the movies become Darth Vader we see in the Original Trilogy.

In the prequels, Anakin is whiny and his motivations to go to the Dark Side is thin. Visions? Not buying it. I'd rather see Anakin as this badass confident fighter who is tempted by the Dark Side alot due to his pride and ego. Whereas that temptation is tempered by his wife and his love for her. I'd would have wanted to see a full realization of that personally.

May I suggest watching the clone war cartoon it a lot closer to what you want.

[TulipQulqu]

I think having Ben live in the end could work, but it couldn't be played off as "oh he's redeemed, so everything is fine and everyone is cool now". That was sort of okay (though not really) with Anakin because he got to die in the end and not face any consequences for all the 20+ years of war crimes he committed. It was stupid, but Lucas' films are very simplistic that way. Keeping Ben alive would at least have been different, because that would open up many story possibilities for him.

But no, he had to die because Vader did, and Abrams is one of the least original directors out there in terms of storytelling.

The problem is this requires figuring out how to basically get someone as vile as Anders Breivik to make amends for their crimes.

The kindest thing we have managed for people like Ben Solo is what Breivik has gotten; the white supremacist rampage killer is spending the rest of his life in a prison that is basically a shitty small apartment with no internet but reasonable access to the local library's video games, movies, and books for entertainment. No one would ever be okay with such a person having something like a Lightsaber and them having force-powers would make people rightly terrified; no number of fighting other evils could be expected to sway people from this.

Ben Solo would have to basically retire to that island Luke was on, just so no one killed him in a fit of vengeful rage.

[Makeshift Python]

You forgot one critical point about Kylo Ren: His mother, Leia. The fact that he could not commit to killing her showed that she was the one element that could possibly reawaken the Ben inside of him. I suspect that had Carrie Fisher not passed away that scene with Han would have actually been her instead projecting herself, giving her last ounce of energy to be able to communicate with him and then her passing pulls him back into the light. Instead it’s more of a series of events that brings back Ben, where her passing makes him pause for Rey to strike, then Rey’s act of kindness by healing his wound (and perhaps his soul?) starts to make him question himself, and then finally the scene with Han is what ultimately brings back Ben.

I mentioned before, I was not on board the idea of Kylo Ren turning good. But at the way it was handled in TROS turned me around on that, and is probably the strongest element in that film. I wish the rest of the film was as good as that.

One problem with this, he was going to kill her at the end of TLJ's forth act AND had no problem with letting the two tie-fighters kill her. And even with that I'm not buying it, one talk with his mom is all it took for him to turn from the Dark Side? One thing that I like about TPT is that it, IMHO, adds to Vader's redemption. Without TPT it's just one movie that builds up to his redemption but with TPT in mind then it fits with his arc from TPT as what caused him to fall to the dark side was his desire to save his wife and unborn children and what brings him back to the light was his love for his son.

I don't really think you need the prequels for that, it's pretty much laid out in EMPIRE and JEDI that Vader has a desire to be with his son and Luke tries to use that to break through Vader in the latter. And during the last act of TLJ he was under the impression that his mom was already dead because of those two fighters. He didn't "let" those fighters do the job, it was clear that he was surprised by their sudden appearance and after their attack resigned himself to believing she was gone.

Also keep in mind is that Anakin was basically fighting against death and tried to become as powerful as possible to overcome it to hold onto what he loved. But, at the end of TOT he is able to save his son not through becoming more powerful but just by doing the right thing when it he could. And his death, again IMHO, becomes more meaningful as it ties into what Yoda said. He doesn't tell Luke to mourn him or to save him he tells him to let him go only asking that Leia know that Luke was right that there was good in him.

But with Kylo, he became evil because he thought the Dark Side was cool until ROS retconned that into it being that Palpatine was every voice in Kylo's head which takes ALL his agency away from him. He didn't choose to be evil the voices in his head made him do it. And.. they didn't actually do anything with this, he learns that he has been manipulated by Palpatine his entire life and he just sorta shrugs it off and goes about his business.

Or learning that Palpatine had manipulating him is partly what made him reconsider where he is in life.

But back on subject. Kylo's love for his mom is nice and all but him just turning to the good side because she finally gave him a call is frankly lazy writing in both versions of Episode 9 and in both cases most seem to agree that said redemption feels unearned because it's literally a case of

Leia/Han: Be good now.
Kylo Ren/Ben Solo: Okay.

I dunno why you're ignoring a point I made earlier that Leia calling out for him is only part of what helped Ben come back. Keep in mind, Rey's act of giving her lifeforce and healing him is what pushes him further. And from the very start of this trilogy we saw that Kylo Ren was always in conflict with himself, feeling the pull to the light. Killing Han was his attempt to try to make a full commitment to the dark side once and for all but that didn't turn out to be the case.

But I'm getting the sense you're taking the opposite approach to what Dave Filoni has been doing with the sequels in that you're NOT interested in trying to reconcile things in the ST.

[Makeshift Python]

Out of curiosity what #8 and 9?

Well, here's my ranking of the saga:

1. The Empire Strikes Back - 10/10
2. Star Wars - 9/10
3. The Last Jedi - 8/10
4. The Force Awakens - 7/10
5. Return of the Jedi - 7/10
6. The Rise of Skywalker - 5/10
7. Revenge of the Sith - 4/10
8. The Phantom Menace - 3/10
9. Attack of the Clones - 1/10

[Winter]

I don't really think you need the prequels for that, it's pretty much laid out in EMPIRE and JEDI that Vader has a desire to be with his son and Luke tries to use that to break through Vader in the latter. And during the last act of TLJ he was under the impression that his mom was already dead because of those two fighters. He didn't "let" those fighters do the job, it was clear that he was surprised by their sudden appearance and after their attack resigned himself to believing she was gone.

I fully agree, I just think TPT adds to that. We're given more context and, again just my opinion, I think that adds to the story. Also, why would Kylo be under the impression Leia is dead. She used the Force to get back to her ship (which honestly only bugs me given how silly it was shot as we have seen Jedi survive the vacuum of space before) and it's been established that anyone using the Force alerts others to that person even if they're literally on the other side of the galaxy and the closer they are to that person the more they can narrow their location down.

Or learning that Palpatine had manipulating him is partly what made him reconsider where he is in life.

Possible but there's nothing in the text of the movie that suggests that. Let's say you cut that line of Palpatine's out and all we got was the whole I made Snoke and then the offer to fly the fleet of Death Star Destroys. It wouldn't change anything. Kylo learning that Palpatine is behind why he fell to the dark side means nothing.

I dunno why you're ignoring a point I made earlier that Leia calling out for him is only part of what helped Ben come back. Keep in mind, Rey's act of giving her lifeforce and healing him is what pushes him further. And from the very start of this trilogy we saw that Kylo Ren was always in conflict with himself, feeling the pull to the light. Killing Han was his attempt to try to make a full commitment to the dark side once and for all but that didn't turn out to be the case.

I'm not ignoring it I just don't think that one good act is enough to drive Kylo to the light and I see it as contrived writing. On She-Ra Adora saved Catra from certain death several times while the two were still enemies but even when Adora tried to save Catra from the collapsing of reality that Catra caused Catra still refused to be saved from herself. It took her losing everything, becoming friends with Glimmer and being given a choose of just letting Adora get capture by Horde Prime or doing one good thing in her life that she finally decided to defect from the Horde.

I mentioned this before but Ben Solo is completely pointless in ROS' third act. All he does is kill the Knights of Ren, (who were little more then glorified extras who don't do anything regular Storm Troopers could have done) and brought Rey back to life (which could have been easily avoided because Rey dies... because she used two Lightsabers in a fight). Cutting him out would change nothing and I honestly think Kylo was suppose to die on that moon.

Also, I think Rey killing Kylo when he was being distracted by Leia would have been more powerful as Rey would have crossed a line and that would make her trying leave the war make all the more sense and her going back despite the risks of her falling all the more powerful.

If a moment is this many layers of pointless that it being a point you can cut from the film then I don't count it because the FILM isn't counting it.

But I'm getting the sense you're taking the opposite approach to what Dave Filoni has been doing with the sequels in that you're NOT interested in trying to reconcile things in the ST.

Actually, I'm fully on board with the idea of reconciling with TDST. I know it doesn't seem like that given how often I rant about it but the truth is there are part of this Trilogy that I do enjoy. But the issues I have with it make it hard for me to enjoy those parts.

It's like the ending of Mass Effect 3. No matter how much I love parts of that game the parts I don't enjoy, like the ending, make it impossible for me to look past those points. But truth be told, I per-ordered the Legendary Edition of the Mass Effect Trilogy and I brought to tears when the Trailer for the next ME game was released. And if Disney does decide to stay the course with keeping TDST canon, I'm okay with that. Because I still love this series, I still have the Thrawn Trilogy, I still love the first two seasons of the Mandalorian and I can't wait to see what Disney and Lucas film are going to do for the 50th Anniversary.

Even if said Anniversary isn't good I'm exited to see how Disney is going to market it. They own or have connections to most major studios around the world. They have shops selling their stuff all over the world and they have 12 Theme parks WITH Star Wars already built into what feels like half of them and the other half has elements that are clearly inspired by Star Wars.

So what if I don't like the ending of the Skywalker Saga, I still love this series and while I didn't love it I still enjoyed the Lego Star Wars Holiday Special and felt it was the best film staring Rey, Finn, Poe and Kylo Ren.

There's a web comic called Sunstone on DeviantArt, it's a BDSM about two lesbians in a will they won't they story. In the fourth chapter the two have a pretty bad fight and basically break up and the fifth chapter is all about them getting back together and they eventually get married. There will always be moments in our lives when something happens that causes us to become angry at what we love, be it friends, family or lovers but in the end there is always a chance to rebuild and to make things better then what they were before.

And here's the twist, TDST isn't even my least favorite Star Wars story, Legacy of the Force is. You want a story that makes you reconsider what bad Star Wars look like risk your brain-cells and read LOTF. It is so needlessly long, so pointlessly cruel and killing off so many beloved characters including my favorite SW of all time Mara Jade that by the end it will make the Star War Holiday Special look like the Godfather by comparison because at least with that film you can have fun with how bad it is.

While there are some similarities between TDST and LOTF there's a one key difference. TDST has a few moments I hate but other then that is just annoys me. LOTF is NINE BOOKS Long with each one being more pointless then the last that I just let the hate flow through me for those stories.

But this story didn't ruin Star Wars for me because there are a LOT of stories before LOTF and the stories that I love are still there.

And besides, what is Star Wars if not a tale of redemption?

[Thebestoftherest]

Out of curiosity what #8 and 9?

Well, here's my ranking of the saga:

1. The Empire Strikes Back - 10/10
2. Star Wars - 9/10
3. The Last Jedi - 8/10
4. The Force Awakens - 7/10
5. Return of the Jedi - 7/10
6. The Rise of Skywalker - 5/10
7. Revenge of the Sith - 4/10
8. The Phantom Menace - 3/10
9. Attack of the Clones - 1/10

Yeah, honestly I feel you can watch the prequel beginning with episode three and lose nothing really.

[TulipQulqu]

Yeah, honestly I feel you can watch the prequel beginning with episode three and lose nothing really.

I think people could and should start with the freely available Star Wars Clone Wars.

https://youtu.be/g6-yclEOgR4

The Clone Wars are a thing Obi-Wan name drops in 4, it shows set up for Anakin falling to darkness, and it is a really fun two hours of Star Wars.