Thinking about Dune and its politics

[Mecha82]

One thing that is often overlooked when it comes to Dune is ecological aspect. Frank Herbert was very detailed about ecology of Arrakis as well as plan that Fremen had to turn it from desert world into world full of life. Then again Frank Herbert did get idea to write Dune after seeing plants growing on sand terrain.

[Actarus]

Something I never understood is why, between the first Dune and Dune Messiah, the Fremen started massacring people in Paul's name, and Paul was seemingly powerless to stop it. It's not like Paul has passed away and people are using his legend to further their own ends. Paul is still alive and the boss of them, so I never got a clear picture of why he couldn't just tell the rampaging Fremen, "Hey, knock that shit off."

It's not only the Fremen, it's the other Great Houses (including the Corrinos), the Spacing Guild, the Bene Gesserit and the Bene Tleilax. Paul deposed Shaddam Corrino and usurped the legitimate ruler of the Empire. It is not surprising that there has been uprisings throughout the Empire opposing the new ruler. So Paul had to send the Fremen who had a religious fervor towards Muad'Dib. And after centuries, or even millenia of being oppressed by the same Great Houses, it is no surprise if they showed some zeal to perform their "sacred task".

[Madner Kami]

And not just that either. The Fremen are religious fanatics in the first place and they only happen to appear to be nice people, because we get to know them, because they help the "good guys" in the first book and because they are treated like shit by other people. Once you take the layer of opression by the Empire and the Harkonnen in particular off of their characterization, you'll soon come to realize, how truely terrible they really are.

As a real-life analogue, of course the Mujahideen are totally nice people. They are fighting for freedom and their ability to worship their god in their own country and they happen to fight the same people that we are fighting, so they are the good guys, right? Once you helped them free themselves and used them to help yourself as well however...

[CharlesPhipps]

My main point in this thread is also the fact that Paul is kind of a terrible ruler and he unleashed the Fremen to secure his reign after using them to get revenge. Very few adaptations get into this because, GASP, it makes him UNSYMPATHETIC.

[Fianna]

Something I never understood is why, between the first Dune and Dune Messiah, the Fremen started massacring people in Paul's name, and Paul was seemingly powerless to stop it. It's not like Paul has passed away and people are using his legend to further their own ends. Paul is still alive and the boss of them, so I never got a clear picture of why he couldn't just tell the rampaging Fremen, "Hey, knock that shit off."

A large part of the book is about how the Fremen aren't actually nice people (90 billion killed). Paul has been beating the drum that he's the messiah, Mua'dib, and a living god for the better part of a decade. It was what allowed him to be Emperor.

You can't just say, "Oh yeah, I'm not a God and these people shouldn't worship me."

RL is full of people killed by their own followers for such things.

Never said he should deny being their God. Just that he should say, "As your God, I order you not to kill those people. Don't worry if they don't worship me; I have a plan to deal with them in time. I'm not going to share that plan with you, though, because God, remember?"

[MissKittyFantastico]

My main point in this thread is also the fact that Paul is kind of a terrible ruler and he unleashed the Fremen to secure his reign after using them to get revenge. Very few adaptations get into this because, GASP, it makes him UNSYMPATHETIC.

I don't find Book Paul unsympathetic (any more than I feel is intended), but my read of the book has always been a tragedy rather than a villain protagonist story. Kid got superpowers and manoeuvred onto the fulcrum that could swing the course of all of human history one way or another through no fault of his own, and by the time his super-history-vision developed enough for him to see what a terrible path he'd set everyone on in attempting to preserve what was left of his family (and, yes, some revenge, but I'd argue given how he was raised his motives overall weren't callous) it was too late.

Mind you I only like the first book - not even getting into the non-Frank ones, everything after the original Dune just doesn't feel like it's coming from the same place. I like that they cement that Paul's hail-mary marriage ploy at the end of the book ultimately didn't change his path, but I'd rather just have that be conveyed in one last wham-line Irulan excerpt at the end of Dune and call it a day. Not that Daniela Amavia doesn't brighten the place up, but still.

[Madner Kami]

Never said he should deny being their God. Just that he should say, "As your God, I order you not to kill those people. Don't worry if they don't worship me; I have a plan to deal with them in time. I'm not going to share that plan with you, though, because God, remember?"

You are missing a finer point there. He still is a Fremen and the moment he stops acting like a Fremen, is the moment when any Fremen can and will step forward and challenge his position, in order to take his water. Paul is trapped.

[Admiral X]

We got a hint of the Fremen being horrible people by how they almost killed Paul and his mother for their water just because they happened to be wandering nearby. And at a later point, it's revealed that this practice is straight-up law amongst their people to kill strangers and take their water.

[Actarus]

We got a hint of the Fremen being horrible people by how they almost killed Paul and his mother for their water just because they happened to be wandering nearby. And at a later point, it's revealed that this practice is straight-up law amongst their people to kill strangers and take their water.

Not really. Those who do that are outcast, like the water stealers of Sietch Jacurutu. Paul and Jessica were taken by the Fremen because they entered one of their shelters uninvited, not because they wanted their water. Of course, anyone who died was dessicated to recuperate its water...

[Admiral X]

We must've read different versions of the book or something, because that isn't what I read. They straight up told them during the ambush that it was basically nothing personal, and that they were planing to take their water, and after Paul and Jessica fought their way to a stand-off by using the Weirding Way, it took them a while to get to their sietch. As I recall, they had to make camp at least once before getting there. And I specifically recall Paul calling out Stilgar about this law to basically convince him to go against tradition another way, by pointing out he already did it once before to positive results (at least at that point) by not killing Paul and Jessica for their water.