Terminator: Dark Fate Opening Scene (Spoilers... Kinda)

[Yukaphile]

"The best action movie ever told" is literally just a T1 retelling AND it also makes everything dumber. Less logic. It's just Cameron wanting to tell the deleted scenes he was upset were cut from T1, nothing more. Original T-800 went out with cold, unerring precision, trying to still kill her as it was being crushed, while the T-1000 went out shrieking in agony while flailing about like a child in a kiddie pool. And it has too much personality. Hardly what I would expect from such advanced, efficient machinery. It's not just the time loop, the smart and clever and sophisticated use of time travel, that breaks down, it is everything. I do love a lot of the concepts in T2, but they could have been better explored elsewhere.

Well, I don't go watch the movies. As it should be plain now. I recently saw Toy Story 4, and past my initial joy, I grew confused. It's just... that's it? That's all? Movies have changed a LOT in the last ten years since I was a regular theater-goer, and it's just... I'm too old for this shit they throw at us.

Last movie I really respected was The Dark Knight. But, I dunno... you don't see creators like that becoming well-beloved today. Again, people like Steven Spielberg are being shoved aside for the Bays and the Abrams of the industry. Then again, Spielberg himself, IIRC, once said Bay could become his successor, which, OMG... was he for real?

Well, at least the Sonic movie was pushed back, lol. So they could fix it. To me, though, the Sonic movie will always be the two 1999 OVAs.

[Mecha82]

You mean in your opinion right? I mean it would stupid to claim that that's truth when it's just your opinion.

[Admiral X]

Isn't that kind of a given when discussing something like a movie?

[Yukaphile]

No, it may be largely subjective, but it is absolutely truth to claim T2 is a T1 retelling. Whether that is to your tastes, fine. But it's true. And not that anyone here does it, but I really get sick and tired of people saying how T3 was a T2 retelling, but... did they just forget T2 was doing the exact same thing? If you think the new concepts justifies it, makes it a good sequel or a better story than T1, great. But it is still a retelling, period.

[Admiral X]

[Mecha82]

Isn't that kind of a given when discussing something like a movie?

Sure but this is internet. People tend to write things like they opinions are truths and it's more difficult to spot nuance trough text and it is from real life conversation.

[Winter]

No, it may be largely subjective, but it is absolutely truth to claim T2 is a T1 retelling. Whether that is to your tastes, fine. But it's true. And not that anyone here does it, but I really get sick and tired of people saying how T3 was a T2 retelling, but... did they just forget T2 was doing the exact same thing? If you think the new concepts justifies it, makes it a good sequel or a better story than T1, great. But it is still a retelling, period.

It's true that the Plot of T2 is a retelling of T1, but the character arcs are Not a retelling of T1. Sarah arc in T1 was the heroes journey and her becoming the woman who would shape John into the future leader of humanity and Kyle was her mentor and lover who came across time to meet her and his love for her Didn't lessen when he saw who she was then.

In T2, Sarah's Journey is about learning to opening up and admitting that she loves her son and doesn't just see him as the savior of humanity, The Terminator's arc is about becoming human and learning why life must be protected, Miles Dyson's arc is learning that his creation will destroy all humanity and to redeem himself by stopping it before it happens. And John's arc is trying to hold onto the family he has only to learn that he must let part of that go for the good of everyone.

With Rise and Shadow of the Tomb Raider Lara's arc is identical to her arc from the first game in the reboot series. She wants to learn more about the supernatural, she loses a parent figure, she feels guilty for nearly destroying the world, rinse, lather, repeat.

Home Alone 2 is a complete repeat of Home Alone. Same plot, same character arcs, same conclusion. And I feel the same way about The Disney Star Wars Sequel Trilogy, some things might be different but they are minor. Rey's arc is almost point for point identical to Luke's, Finn's arc is pretty much the same as Han's and Kylo's journey is likely going to be the same as Vader's if the online photo and plot synopsis leak are true.

But just in terms of T2, no, it's not a complete retelling of T1. If it was, Sarah would have to be who she was at the start of T1, The Terminator would have to just be Kyle of a different name, there would be no John and the T-1000 would have to be played by Arnold again with new tricks. THEN I would agree that's T2 is just a retread of T1.

[Yukaphile]

I could accept the character nuances are different and build off T1. But I hate how much dumber it made the story and the world it is part of, overall. Perhaps as I begin world-building I'm putting too much emphasis on the world rather than the characters, but I do like a tight continuity if it has a strong start. And T1 was logically flawless, past personal taste. T2? Not so much. All the time travel confusion that T1 did not have, the retcons, the superficially cool but logically dumber villain that is more a "character" now than a concept like in first movie, making Arnold the action hero star like he had originally wanted in T1 despite how illogical it is that a machine would build cloned infiltrator models (tying into how much dumber as a concept the T-1000 was, because super-precise, super-ruthless, and super-efficient, cold and unerring machines of death do NOT act that way, period), all because Cameron was upset he didn't have those deleted scenes in the movie. Or maybe he wanted to get back at Harlan Ellison or something, I dunno. "I'll make it again, and make SURE you can't sue me this time!" Maybe it's just that the humans got better arcs, and the machines who made up the other half of this war did not, they regressed. Kinda like the treatment the Borg got, or what Chuck said about how the Autobots had got shoved to the side to make the Bayformers mostly about military porn and humans as part of a disaster story. Or maybe it is just that T2 gets unending praise I do not think it deserves when stacked alongside T1, because T2 is "bigger," or more "mainstream" to dumb audiences than T1 is, and any improvement to the story with the corporatized model today needs to eject T2, but everyone's reactions here shows why they are not doing that. You don't HAVE to remove it. Just make it part of another continuity, and build off T1. But again, that is popular, and "popular" sells.

I don't mind repeats, btw. I just want the world it's part of to make sense. In Back to the Future, time travel was always nonsense. And in Star Wars, it's consistent to Palpatine's character he'd wanna build another Death Star. It is not consistent to the world that really got retconned. And yes, Dyson was a great new concept and character, but he also would've worked much better and more effectively in a legitimate "rise of the machines" movie than what we got, which is what T2 should have been, but it was not because that's safe, bankable, and of course, makes those in charge lots of money. Imagine Act I showing Dyson's journey, a well-meaning scientist, who wants his invention to do so much good. Then it gets hijacked by the military for a secret Cold War project underneath Cheyenne Mountain as part of NORAD. Dyson is hesitant, angry, but goes along with it, just wanting to see the realization of his dream. He is part of those initial scientists who first brought it online, and watches with concern, and suddenly he panics when he realizes that Skynet has become self-aware, and could go rampant, shut it down, pull the plug. The machine fights back, and Dyson himself dies realizing the enormity of his mistake, birthing Frankenstein's Monster, opening a Pandora's Box which controls one-third of the world's nuclear arsenal, the bombs fall, he sees it all as he is finally gunned down by his own creations... cut to the second act, it's in the ruins, people starving. This becomes Reese's tale now. Seriously, T2 pulled some of the biggest flaws in storytelling possible. They "told" you via exposition, but did not "show" it. And from everything I can see, to fans that just seems like one big giant tease, to fire off the imagination... but it's never happened on screen, and you can blame the way Cameron took this franchise. Now it never will, because T2 that broke the formula and repeated the tale has to be part of the official canon because hey, that's popular, and if they retconned that, nobody would come pay for the movie!

[Yukaphile]

Yes, I feel very disappointed, not angry, at the way T2 took the franchise, even if it was not uncommon back then. It had so much potential to tell the greater story that lie within past the same old familiar beats of the first. But it did not happen, and it never will with the sheer frightened prey mouse mindset those in charge have at losing money.

[Yukaphile]

WE WILL NEVER GET THAT KIND OF A TERMINATOR WAR STORY, PERIOD. Accept it.