Sfdebris.net

Yes, Rick Berman was bad for Star Trek. I think his only defence was his alleged loyalty to Roddenberry, but I think his rejection of "Blood and Fire" puts paid to that, since he was basically responsible for making a liar out of Gene.

However, if you look at the stuff he wrote with Michael Piller versus the stuff he wrote with Brannon Braga ... well, you can tell who the weak link was. Specifically, DS9's Maquis two-parter is better than anything the Voyager staff did with the Maquis, despite the fact that they were designed for the benefit of Voyager's writers.

Well, Gene Roddenberry choose him, yes? He had a lot of control in early TNG because he was damned salty that Harve Bennett and Nicolas Meyer had the NERVE to tell a good Trek story he never could. And so it speaks volumes to the egocentric personalities he surrounded himself with. Harlan Ellison with his years of abuse. William Shatner, nuff said.

What is "Blood and Fire," though? You're confusing me.

Anything DS9 did with the Maquis was better, period. I'm not disputing that Braga was a weak writer. But I'm not overlooking all he gave us, either, when he was balanced out. Great sci-fi that's true to real concepts, or at least pays lip service to that. Braga was not the only creative force battling for control on Voyager. Jeri Taylor was too, Michael Piller found the environment stifling it seems, as did everyone else, and in the end, they all just left. I don't think Berman was bad for TNG, btw. I like a lot of what he gave us, when stacked alongside someone else. Mostly. "A Matter of Time," "Brothers," and the way he'd refined "Cause and Effect." You can't blame Braga for Voyager failing to deliver when Berman intentionally held them back.

"Blood and Fire" was David Gerrold's script, which was meant to introduce a gay couple, in line with the promise Roddenberry had made to that effect. Berman refused to run it.

Clearly Braga isn't the worst writer, but I think you could make the case that he was the weakest on continuity and world-building. Continuity isn't the responsibility of whoever wrote the first draft of the script, it's the job of the day-to-day showrunner(s), whether that person be the story editor, the head writer/writing team, or an executive producer. In the past the term showrunner might not have been used, but we broadly know who filled those roles in each series.

With Braga, he had a lot of say in the scripts through the second half of Voyager's run and through most of Enterprise. I think you could make a decent case that Star Trek was spinning its wheels in a creative rut at this time, regurgitating formulaic stories that had been told dozens of times without expanding the universe at all. And in terms of continuity, characters like Janeway and Archer were tremendously schizophrenic. Braga himself seemed much more interested in concept than character.

That's not to say that there were no good stories being told, but in terms of world-building, Trek wasn't at its peak under Braga's watch.

And weakest on science.

Simplicius wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:13 am Weddle & Thompson are anaemic, like Fuller and Klink. Is anything they did egregiously bad? That's a genuine question because I can barely remember a lot of their episodes.

Their fingerprints are all over the Pagh-Wraith stuff, which to me ruined the show. They were also behind Section 31, which wasn't a bad idea per se but which was executed hideously poorly IMO.

Durandal_1707 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:50 pm Their fingerprints are all over the Pah-Wraith stuff, which to me ruined the show. They were also behind Section 31, which wasn't a bad idea per se but which was executed hideously poorly IMO.

I definitely agree that the Pah-Wraith nonsense hurt the show immeasurably but how much of that was Weddle & Thompson's design?

I thought Ira Steven Behr created Section 31, though. Am I mistaken?

I really disliked the implied rape the Prophets had in the conception of Sisko. It could have been solved if they had just said she was destined to meet Joe anyway, and had left him of her own free will. This is the kind of thing you can't walk back from and the show never explained or bothered to treat as bad, which is kind of scary. Sisko seems "disappointed" briefly, but learning your superpowers come against the will of your mother should really be when you start to lose your faith. My Peruvian friend began DS9 last year. Finished this year, in summer. He disliked how it ended, same as me. Felt it was weak. But he did love the show overall, as I do.

Simplicius wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:53 pm

Durandal_1707 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:50 pm Their fingerprints are all over the Pah-Wraith stuff, which to me ruined the show. They were also behind Section 31, which wasn't a bad idea per se but which was executed hideously poorly IMO.

I definitely agree that the Pah-Wraith nonsense hurt the show immeasurably but how much of that was Weddle & Thompson's design?

W&T did both "The Assignment" and "The Reckoning." The first wasn't bad, but the second really set the tone for the way all the rest of them went.

Also, it's my understanding that W&T are the ones who kept spelling it "pah" instead of "pagh", which kinda grinds my gears as well.

I thought Ira Steven Behr created Section 31, though. Am I mistaken?

I don't doubt that he came up with the idea (which, like I said, wasn't necessarily a bad idea), but W&T did two out of the three episodes in the arc—"Inquisition", which started the arc, and "Extreme Measures", which ended it—both of which turned the entire thing into a cartoon. ("Inter Arma" was by Moore instead, and that one didn't suck)

Durandal_1707 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:15 am Also, it's my understanding that W&T are the ones who kept spelling it "pah" instead of "pagh", which kinda grinds my gears as well.

Yes, that does make them come across as quite flippant.

I don't doubt that he came up with the idea (which, like I said, wasn't necessarily a bad idea), but W&T did two out of the three episodes in the arc—"Inquisition", which started the arc, and "Extreme Measures", which ended it—both of which turned the entire thing into a cartoon. ("Inter Arma" was by Moore instead, and that one didn't suck)

I'll accept that, yes. I still don't think it compares to the lows of Braga's writing, but I would definitely leave them off my list of "Trek writers to ask back if I were in charge".