Alternate History versions of World War I and II thread

[Independent George]

People always talk about the 'kill Hitler' option with time travel; I always thought that was thinking way too small, and for all his evil ascribes way too much consequence onto a single man.

If I could undo one event in history, it'd be the first World War, not the second. The problem with that is: how, exactly? The proximate causes of WWI aren't exactly easy to untangle. On the eve of WWI, Europe was at the most peaceful and most prosperous moment in its history; writers were convinced that war was impossible because how closely entwined all of their economies were, and there was little to be gained by anyone through war. And yet... it happened anyway. With enthusiasm.

But let's mix metaphors and wave the magic reset button. In a last-minute bout of sanity, somehow war in Europe is averted. Off the top of my head, I could see the following consequences:

1. The Ottoman Empire probably probably still rules most of the Mid-East.
2. Does Europe ever de-colonize Asia & Africa? Or do we have a century of small colonial wars ahead?
3. There probably is a war in Asia as Japan colonizes China, Korea, and the Philippines to catch up to its European rivals. Taiwan probably becomes wholly Japanese.
4. There is probably another war between Japan and Russia, which could go either way.
5. If there is a communist revolution in Russia (and there's no guarantee that there would be), it is probably a localized phenomenon and not a global one.

[Rasp]

Godzilla would also not be a thing because its likely japan would have not been nuked twice.

I want to respond to what you said, but I suspect it may be base don some stuff i haven't seen yet since I'm following the Dub putting me a couple episodes behind.

Did you also watch Izetta?

Yeah I've been up to episode 11 since that came out a few day ago and I think the dub is up to 8 at most? I know the ending on 8 is a little bit darker than most but without spoiling its going in an interesting direction from there - if you like the sweeping military strategy part of the show.

Izetta I've not seen nor heard much about.

[Durandal_1707]

People always talk about the 'kill Hitler' option with time travel; I always thought that was thinking way too small, and for all his evil ascribes way too much consequence onto a single man.

If I could undo one event in history, it'd be the first World War, not the second. The problem with that is: how, exactly? The proximate causes of WWI aren't exactly easy to untangle. On the eve of WWI, Europe was at the most peaceful and most prosperous moment in its history; writers were convinced that war was impossible because how closely entwined all of their economies were, and there was little to be gained by anyone through war. And yet... it happened anyway. With enthusiasm.

But let's mix metaphors and wave the magic reset button. In a last-minute bout of sanity, somehow war in Europe is averted. Off the top of my head, I could see the following consequences:

1. The Ottoman Empire probably probably still rules most of the Mid-East.
2. Does Europe ever de-colonize Asia & Africa? Or do we have a century of small colonial wars ahead?
3. There probably is a war in Asia as Japan colonizes China, Korea, and the Philippines to catch up to its European rivals. Taiwan probably becomes wholly Japanese.
4. There is probably another war between Japan and Russia, which could go either way.
5. If there is a communist revolution in Russia (and there's no guarantee that there would be), it is probably a localized phenomenon and not a global one.

Not so sure about #5, especially since you have to consider all the various peoples that were all stuck under the thumb of the three great powers in central and eastern Europe. The Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Slovenians, Croatians, Bosnians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Finns, and probably others that I'm forgetting were all living under the rule of the Germans, the Austrians, and the Russians, and there'd already been quite a number of revolutions in the 19th century alone by various of these groups trying to get independence for themselves. With these empires all still intact, there surely would have been more, and with people already in a revolutionary mood, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine how Communist agitators could get in on the ground floor.

[Independent George]

Not so sure about #5, especially since you have to consider all the various peoples that were all stuck under the thumb of the three great powers in central and eastern Europe. The Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Slovenians, Croatians, Bosnians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Finns, and probably others that I'm forgetting were all living under the rule of the Germans, the Austrians, and the Russians, and there'd already been quite a number of revolutions in the 19th century alone by various of these groups trying to get independence for themselves. With these empires all still intact, there surely would have been more, and with people already in a revolutionary mood, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine how Communist agitators could get in on the ground floor.

Maybe - but I think it far more likely that each country might have socialist parties represented with varying degrees of success. Communism was imposed on them from outside, and maintained through force of arms; none of them chose to join the Soviet Union. The thing about all those revolutions in the 19th century is that none of them succeeded, and all of them got co-opted by the existing governments. It took the bloodbath of WWI and a weak Tsarist government for Lenin to take power, and the Soviet Union (and the Warsaw Pact) were the direct result of the aftermath of WWII. If you take away that chain of causality... I'm doubtful that communism gets the international traction that we saw in our world.

[MithrandirOlorin]

You mean Socialism, there was nothing truly Communist abut the USSR.

[Durandal_1707]

All the evidence we have suggests that pure Communism is way too idealistic to exist for long without devolving into something else, so it's quite possible the USSR was as close to true Communism as we'll ever see.

[MithrandirOlorin]

The idea that Socialism is even a valid "lesser form" of Communism is offensive to me. Socialism is Capitalism in it's purest form.

[Durandal_1707]

The idea that Socialism is even a valid "lesser form" of Communism is offensive to me. Socialism is Capitalism in it's purest form.

What's offensive to me is getting misquoted. Nowhere in there did I say "lesser form", despite the quote marks. My specific wording was "something else."

The second sentence is quite odd to me, but then again I really don't want to get into another political argument, so I think I'll just leave it.

[MithrandirOlorin]

You can understand my views of COmunism and Socalims better here.
http://solascripturachristianliberty.bl ... chive.html

Back on Topic. I watched Episode 9 Dubbed yesterday, it was amusing.

[Durandal_1707]

Okay, I will simply say that I disagree with the contents of that blog post, but leave it at that, so the thread can continue on-topic.