Is there something that's the opposite of Star Wars in terms of how it relates to SciFi and Fantasy?

[Madner Kami]

Might and Magic.

[Hero_Of_Shadows]

This is a well trodden trope, a lot of the older fantasy series from the 80's and etc used this as "the twist", it's easy to forget that the current respect and resources fantasy gets was not always the case.

[MithrandirOlorin]

Something with a Twist like that I'd still consider a Fantasy narrative.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Yeah I do often feel like Hard Magick Systems are a sign someone wishes they were writing Sci-Fi instead of Fantasy.

Why wishing they were writing something else, instead of exploring the idea that if magic exists then it's a natural part of the universe with its own laws and limits? (most works with magic in them have a degree of that subconciously - when the wizard says the spell he expects certain results from it). That's the whole point of speculative fiction.

I generally delineate the difference in my mind to the degree of causality or non-causality assigned to the systems.

The key distinction between magic and science is adherence to the scientific method. The scientific method makes no value judgments about what laws the universe should follow, but it does assume that the universe follows consistent laws. I.E. If you perform an experiment, someone in China performs an experiment, someone in England performs an experiment, someone in Africa performs an experiment, as long as the same initial conditions and the same experimental protocol is followed, the same results should be expected.

If a system follows these rules, it's scientific, regardless of whether it matches our understanding of science or not. On the other hand, if three people can do identical things, and get three different results, then it's non-causal. Non-causal things cannot be measured by science, because they defy science. As far as we understand it, we live in a pretty causal universe, so non-causality is not something we consider.

But as a dividing line, causal magic is very similar to "different science".

https://youtu.be/8PHaZIzH8GI?t=174

[Madner Kami]

Something with a Twist like that I'd still consider a Fantasy narrative.

Then the question you posed is impossible to answer.

But as a dividing line, causal magic is very similar to "different science".

https://youtu.be/8PHaZIzH8GI?t=174

Are you trying to counter his claim or what are you trying to say with that link?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Something with a Twist like that I'd still consider a Fantasy narrative.

Then the question you posed is impoosible to answer.

But as a dividing line, causal magic is very similar to "different science".

https://youtu.be/8PHaZIzH8GI?t=174

what are you trying to say with that link?

It was interesting that Grey Ice noted the bounding relation or dynamic between science and magic. That clip depicts how Young Justice tackled it. That clip kind of just elaborated a bit on what they were saying.

Magic and science are constructs in the DC universe. The topic has also been unraveled a bit between me and Grey Ice just fyi.

In general I think Marvel might be more prominently sci-fi than DC, though all I'm using as a basis for comparison involves X-Men with the Justice League. DC is all about the heroes and the adventure they go on while X-Men has a lot of "life as a mutant," theme going on.

[GreyICE]

It was interesting that Grey Ice noted the bounding relation or dynamic between science and magic. That clip depicts how Young Justice tackled it. That clip kind of just elaborated a bit on what they were saying.

Magic and science are constructs in the DC universe. The topic has also been unraveled a bit between me and Grey Ice just fyi.

In general I think Marvel might be more prominently sci-fi than DC, though all I'm using as a basis for comparison involves X-Men with the Justice League. DC is all about the heroes and the adventure they go on while X-Men has a lot of "life as a mutant," theme going on.

I'd definitely say that Marvel tends more towards the science fiction, with notable exceptions. Doctor Strange, for instance, but they usually segregate that in its own thing. DC is definitely one that mixes magic in more.

Regardless, I hate that clip because it's the classic straw skeptic bs. Skeptics accept evidence. If someone uses magic all the time and it works, fine, magic is real. It'd take a fair amount of evidence to convince me, but if I'm on a team with multiple people who cast very visible, evident spells that have obvious effects, then magic can be real until and unless we figure out a different explanation.

All magic in the real world has turned out to be sleight of hand, cold reading, hot reading, and other forms of trickery. That's why skeptics are skeptical of it. It's not because "they have closed minds that can't accept magic", it's that people who say they're doing magic are doing magic tricks.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

It was interesting that Grey Ice noted the bounding relation or dynamic between science and magic. That clip depicts how Young Justice tackled it. That clip kind of just elaborated a bit on what they were saying.

Magic and science are constructs in the DC universe. The topic has also been unraveled a bit between me and Grey Ice just fyi.

In general I think Marvel might be more prominently sci-fi than DC, though all I'm using as a basis for comparison involves X-Men with the Justice League. DC is all about the heroes and the adventure they go on while X-Men has a lot of "life as a mutant," theme going on.

I'd definitely say that Marvel tends more towards the science fiction, with notable exceptions. Doctor Strange, for instance, but they usually segregate that in its own thing. DC is definitely one that mixes magic in more.

Regardless, I hate that clip because it's the classic straw skeptic bs. Skeptics accept evidence. If someone uses magic all the time and it works, fine, magic is real. It'd take a fair amount of evidence to convince me, but if I'm on a team with multiple people who cast very visible, evident spells that have obvious effects, then magic can be real until and unless we figure out a different explanation.

All magic in the real world has turned out to be sleight of hand, cold reading, hot reading, and other forms of trickery. That's why skeptics are skeptical of it. It's not because "they have closed minds that can't accept magic", it's that people who say they're doing magic are doing magic tricks.

Correct on all accounts. I would add that that clip is truncated, as the actual turn of events understandably leads to Wally having more difficulty rationalizing stuff. I mean right after that ends he says that they hit a quantum barrier, which further reads down what you're saying about magic being in all likelihood misunderstood science. And of course, the DC world effectively has magic that has distinct properties against the forces of the universe, Superman for notable instance.

[GreyICE]

Correct on all accounts. I would add that that clip is truncated, as the actual turn of events understandably leads to Wally having more difficulty rationalizing stuff. I mean right after that ends he says that they hit a quantum barrier, which further reads down what you're saying about magic being in all likelihood misunderstood science. And of course, the DC world effectively has magic that has distinct properties against the forces of the universe, Superman for notable instance.

It's really more that the Scientific Method can explain anything that's experimentally verifiable. If Atlantean-style "magic" existed in the universe, then it'd trash most of what we know about science, but that's okay. We'd have different rules and different starting parameters, and we'd have to figure things out. The Atlantean magic falls into that - draw the right runes, use the right mystical power sources, get the right results. To a skeptic this is fascinating - we have to throw everything out and start again! Oh wow!

Things are only impossible to solve by science if they're miraculous - effect without cause. Some DC stuff does work this way - the lords of chaos and order things like the Gods, things that came about just because they came about - no rhyme, no reason, no reproducibility. DC has a large share of that magic as well. To a skeptic this is horrifying - me and Bob can both do the same thing, and Bob's result is different because the universe liked him more.

So what I'd love to see is an actual skeptical explanation of why a universe that can break the rules on its own whim is a concept that'd need a LOT of evidence to accept and is philosophically horrifying, while a simple fact that "everything has rules, we just don't understand the ones your stuff works on yet, and it's a thought-terminating cliche to call it 'magic' and stop there" is a good position.

Although sadly there's "mystical scientists" in Atlantis who are literally studying magic and therefore doing exactly what Wally SHOULD be rooting for.

(I am also writing multiple paragraphs about an animated show - granted one I like - so maybe I've put more thought into this than the writers intended)

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Correct on all accounts. I would add that that clip is truncated, as the actual turn of events understandably leads to Wally having more difficulty rationalizing stuff. I mean right after that ends he says that they hit a quantum barrier, which further reads down what you're saying about magic being in all likelihood misunderstood science. And of course, the DC world effectively has magic that has distinct properties against the forces of the universe, Superman for notable instance.

It's really more that the Scientific Method can explain anything that's experimentally verifiable. If Atlantean-style "magic" existed in the universe, then it'd trash most of what we know about science, but that's okay. We'd have different rules and different starting parameters, and we'd have to figure things out. The Atlantean magic falls into that - draw the right runes, use the right mystical power sources, get the right results. To a skeptic this is fascinating - we have to throw everything out and start again! Oh wow!

Things are only impossible to solve by science if they're miraculous - effect without cause. Some DC stuff does work this way - the lords of chaos and order things like the Gods, things that came about just because they came about - no rhyme, no reason, no reproducibility. DC has a large share of that magic as well. To a skeptic this is horrifying - me and Bob can both do the same thing, and Bob's result is different because the universe liked him more.

So what I'd love to see is an actual skeptical explanation of why a universe that can break the rules on its own whim is a concept that'd need a LOT of evidence to accept and is philosophically horrifying, while a simple fact that "everything has rules, we just don't understand the ones your stuff works on yet, and it's a thought-terminating cliche to call it 'magic' and stop there" is a good position.

Although sadly there's "mystical scientists" in Atlantis who are literally studying magic and therefore doing exactly what Wally SHOULD be rooting for.

(I am also writing multiple paragraphs about an animated show - granted one I like - so maybe I've put more thought into this than the writers intended)

Well it is possible that as extensive of laws of physics is concerned, there is a practical conduit of energy dictated for as far as science will ever reach through all dimensional parameters that we can account for.

But right you can't escape that what's happening in the universe is a part of the universe. If magic for instance is through conduit to another universe, then we're still just talking about some ulterior realm that might as well be "the universe" for all intents and reasons. Like we look at a computer board with interconnecting circuitry with distinctive paths for electric signals, and that's practically no different than a magic portal between two interconnected capacitors with varying resistance systems.