General Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel discussion thread.

[The Romulan Republic]

It's been years since I watched either, but I recall that I felt at the time:

1. Buffy was excellent through S3, then started declining significantly as the characters & arcs started losing direction.

It seems like almost everybody says this, but as I said, I think that Four's lack of direction was more deliberate, a lack of direction on the part of the characters in-universe, not on the part of the writers.

Maybe it didn't come across very well, but I applaud the show's willingness to experiment with its own format and premise like that, to grow beyond what it was, even with difficulty.

1a. Power creep felt like a much bigger issue in Buffy than in Angel, which contributed to drift mentioned above.

Both shows had "power creep", (Jasmine and the Circle of the Black Thorn on Angel are on a whole different level from the Seasons One through Three villains), though Buffy kind of reversed it in Season Six with the Trio (more on that shortly).

2. Angel was really rough in S1, then improved significantly towards the end of S2. I'm not sure how that lines up with #1.

Am I the only person' who's favourite season of Angel is One?

It felt more... fun. More varied in tone. Like Buffy.

After that, it just got so relentlessly bleak.

3. Both were hurt by having to make 20+ episodes per season; it's just difficult to build suspense and draw out an confrontation with the big bad that long.

Its possible to do both, but pacing is something that a lot of writers aren't terrible good at, sadly.

Though I do think the slow build-up of tension, even over multiple seasons, contributed a lot to the emotional power of certain arcs (particularly Joyce's death- "The Body" was far more effective, I think, because of the build-up leading to it than it would have been had it just happened out of the blue).

4. I thought the supernatural "ecosystem" in Angel was much, much better developed and consistent in Angel than in Buffy.

How so?

Though, one nice touch I really liked was an off-hand mention in season five that the LA DA was employing defensive magic against Wolfram and Hart. That was awesome.

God damn, I could watch a show about the adventures of a wizard DA.

5. I thought the S5 Buffy finale was great - a worthy end to the series. The 2nd series finale... meh. A sloppy ending to a mess of a season.

"The Gift" is probably my second favourite episode after "The Body", if not my favourite. Though I really regard "Tough Love" through "The Gift" as a single four-part story, to the point that I would recommend, if possible, watching all four episodes back to back as though they were a single feature film.*

But I am also quite fond of the finales of both Season Six (which I think would have made a worthy finale to the series in its own right) and Season Seven (though its emotional power, for me, derives mostly from the fact that it is the end).

*Incidentally, the second part of that four-parter, "Spiral", has a bit of sentimental value to me, as by chance, it was the first episode of Buffy I ever watched.

6. I loved the final scene of the Angel finale, but the overall conclusion was rushed. I know it's because they were told of their cancellation very late, but there just was not a coherent buildup for the Circle, and having them all killed so quickly and relatively easily was kind of anticlimactic. Heck, the fact that their whole plan involved having each member solo'd implicitly reduces their threat level.

I can't really argue with that.

7. As so often happens, the overall quality of both series varied directly with the overall quality of the Villains. A+ for The Mayor and Jasmine; mixed grades for the the rest.

Eh, I loved Spike and Angelus's runs as villains, but all of them had their strengths. Sometimes, even a more weakly-written villain would be compelling based on the strength of the acting (especially Caleb in season seven, who was around too briefly and had comparatively little depth, but is compelling almost entirely on the strength of Nathan Fillion's brilliantly malevolent performance). Even the trio in Season Six were conceptually interesting, if often poorly-executed. Their's a lot of paranoia and horror to be had in the idea that, rather than trying to one-up the previous season's hell god, they went for a purely human and seemingly pathetic threat that turned out to be one of the most deadly of all.

Special points for shear creepiness go to Holland Manners, the Wolfram and Hart boss in early Angel. Their was something so utterly sinister to me about how he would get into peoples' heads, convince them that evil was right, and seemed to believe it himself. And the actor portrayed it very well.

And Holtz... their's something truly terrifying about a man who will coldly, relentlessly plot his vengeance, without regard for the harm to innocents; who knows full-well that he's a monster (his final words are pretty much to ask Justine to send him to Hell), but is so utterly destroyed by what was done to him and the people he loves that he continues to walk down the path to Hell with eyes wide open, because all he has left is vengeance.

The Mayor, though, has some of my favourite lines, with that weird blend of jovial, affable guy and monster that he just nailed.

One of my favourite goes to the First Evil impersonating him in Season Seven: "A soul is slippery than a greased weasel."

[FaxModem1]

Let's look at and discuss Buffy's major romances

Her first major relationship was with Angel, a souled vampire. Angel was the high school girl's dream boyfriend. A handsome mysterious stranger who pops up out of the shadows to help her in her time of need. What was new at the time, but is cliche now, of the monster and human girl who can never be together. It's interesting to note that these two were a great love story, but of the doomed sort. They grew out of each other and moved on with their lives. Both Angel and Buffy grew as people, and while they still did love each other, they recognized that they couldn't be together, both due to the curse, and the fact that their years in Sunnydale had made them change as people. Storywise, he was Buffy's ideal, at least, as a young teen. But Angel grew into his own character, and that's why we have a spin-off.

Her second major relationship was with Riley Finn. Personally, I liked Riley. He was the Buffyverse's Captain America. Grew up on a farm, joined the military, goes to church on Sundays. He was probably Buffy's best chance for a healthy relationship. Then, we saw him go through a sense of inadequacy for two major reasons. One, once he was off the super-pills, he was physically weaker than Buffy, and that ate at him. That's a bit sexist of Riley, and shows the macho culture he came from. Second, and probably more importantly, Buffy wasn't really interested in Riley Finn. He was her rebound guy. For a while, they had incredible passion, but that burned out. Buffy seemed to get bored of him, and Riley tried to emulate Angel in the way he thought was important, by being dark and edgy. We ran into the mired vampire addiction plot, Buffy finds out, and poof; Riley was gone. Storywise, he was Buffy's rebound guy, and he was an examination of the All American jock/college guy. On the outside, he seems perfect, but there's problems underneath, and left unaddressed and unattended, it will eventually blow up in your face.

Finally, we have Spike. Spike was.....a bad idea. A villain falling in love and redeeming himself for the hero can be a good story. However, the problem was inconsistency. Was Spike a monster, a tragic figure, a lost little puppy, a murderer? Yes to all of the above, depending on the day. There was also the writers issue of not knowing where the relationship stood. Angel and Buffy were true love, Riley and Buffy were a quick rebound, but Spike and Buffy? Was he her stalker, her prince, her escape, her guy who went through hell to be worthy of her, her version of settling? It was confused. When you put it all together, you had Buffy being someone in a very unhealthy codependent relationship, and didn't really care that she was in one. It was probably for the best that they parted ways. Seeing as how this was her final romance in the series, it didn't look well for Buffy's self-worth. Storywise, this was starting to approach Twilight levels of bad execution.

There were a couple of romances in the comics, her brief dalliance with Satsu, but that was put down to Buffy just experimenting. In short, it made Buffy look like she was using a friend as a person to lean on in a crunch.

Then she had a crush on Xander. That could have gone somewhere, but it did not. That's about where I stopped anyway, as the plot of season 8 was silly and stupid.

What do you think of Buffy's romances? Do you agree, disagree? Was some random guy from one of the many episodes someone they should have made recurring? Discuss.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

The romances in Buffy were driven by the whim of the Whedon and the force of his great contrivances.

Angel wouldn't have had a place at all if Whedon wasn't so infatuated with this man who has the acting range of a lump of suet. To quote our esteemed sfdebris, "His nipples must taste like candy, it's the only explanation."

Finally, there's Xander, the Likeable Everyman Nerdboy (TM). I kept wishing he would get killed and eaten, not necessarily in that order.

[The Romulan Republic]

Let's look at and discuss Buffy's major romances

One of my big issues with this franchise is its persistently cynical take on sex and romance. I don't think their was a single relationship on Buffy or Angel that stayed healthy for long, in part, apparently, because the writers thought it was boring if it wasn't dysfunctional.

For the record, I despise everyone of Buffy's relationships. However, Spike wins by a hair because Spike was the most interesting and entertaining character to me in his own right (in part because James Marsters tended to steal the show, and in part because he tended to get a lot of the sharpest dialog).

Her first major relationship was with Angel, a souled vampire. Angel was the high school girl's dream boyfriend. A handsome mysterious stranger who pops up out of the shadows to help her in her time of need. What was new at the time, but is cliche now, of the monster and human girl who can never be together. It's interesting to note that these two were a great love story, but of the doomed sort. They grew out of each other and moved on with their lives. Both Angel and Buffy grew as people, and while they still did love each other, they recognized that they couldn't be together, both due to the curse, and the fact that their years in Sunnydale had made them change as people. Storywise, he was Buffy's ideal, at least, as a young teen. But Angel grew into his own character, and that's why we have a spin-off.

Angel, was, frankly, creepy. Buffy may not have seen it that way a lot of the time, but if you look at it from an outside perspective, its an older guy stalking and seducing a teenage girl, and it was a dangerously obsessive relationship on both sides. The writers seemed to go back and forth on weather they realized how creepy and unhealthy their relationship was, though I think part of that is that they were showing it often from Buffy's point of view.

I also think that Angel was, frankly, rather boring on Buffy. He grew a lot more as a character once he got his own series.

Her second major relationship was with Riley Finn. Personally, I liked Riley. He was the Buffyverse's Captain America. Grew up on a farm, joined the military, goes to church on Sundays. He was probably Buffy's best chance for a healthy relationship. Then, we saw him go through a sense of inadequacy for two major reasons. One, once he was off the super-pills, he was physically weaker than Buffy, and that ate at him. That's a bit sexist of Riley, and shows the macho culture he came from. Second, and probably more importantly, Buffy wasn't really interested in Riley Finn. He was her rebound guy. For a while, they had incredible passion, but that burned out. Buffy seemed to get bored of him, and Riley tried to emulate Angel in the way he thought was important, by being dark and edgy. We ran into the mired vampire addiction plot, Buffy finds out, and poof; Riley was gone. Storywise, he was Buffy's rebound guy, and he was an examination of the All American jock/college guy. On the outside, he seems perfect, but there's problems underneath, and left unaddressed and unattended, it will eventually blow up in your face.

Riley's sexist insecurities got really grating, really fast. And I never bought that Buffy wasn't committed to him. She was devastated when he left. I think, rather, that her withdrawing from him was more due to her having to deal with Glory, Dawn, and her mother's illness, while Riley wanted her to be dependent on him, instead of being their to support her in the way she needed.

And when he wasn't being a dick, he was boring. What was it Spike called him? Captain Cardboard?

I actually hate Riley most of all, I think.

Finally, we have Spike. Spike was.....a bad idea. A villain falling in love and redeeming himself for the hero can be a good story. However, the problem was inconsistency. Was Spike a monster, a tragic figure, a lost little puppy, a murderer? Yes to all of the above, depending on the day. There was also the writers issue of not knowing where the relationship stood. Angel and Buffy were true love, Riley and Buffy were a quick rebound, but Spike and Buffy? Was he her stalker, her prince, her escape, her guy who went through hell to be worthy of her, her version of settling? It was confused. When you put it all together, you had Buffy being someone in a very unhealthy codependent relationship, and didn't really care that she was in one. It was probably for the best that they parted ways. Seeing as how this was her final romance in the series, it didn't look well for Buffy's self-worth. Storywise, this was starting to approach Twilight levels of bad execution.

The Spike relationship was muddled and horribly abusive, but I think that that was deliberate. If anything, its something of a deconstruction of the vampire romance cliche. However, it was not always well-executed, and its sometimes hard to square Spike's more noble and sympathetic aspects with how the character, and Buffyverse vampires in general, are generally portrayed. It was also, frankly, often painful to watch.

I do think that post-ensoulment Spike and Buffy might have had real potential, if not for their prior history, and I'm not surprised the comics chose to continue that relationship.

I do think that Spike comes off contradictory at times because...

Well, put it this way:

Angel is like Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. He has his good side, and his evil side that is tempting the good side from within, and he goes back and forth between the two.

Spike is like Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde at the same time. It makes him more nuanced, I think, but also sometimes seemingly contradictory.

There were a couple of romances in the comics, her brief dalliance with Satsu, but that was put down to Buffy just experimenting. In short, it made Buffy look like she was using a friend as a person to lean on in a crunch.

Then she had a crush on Xander. That could have gone somewhere, but it did not. That's about where I stopped anyway, as the plot of season 8 was silly and stupid.

You should give Angel and Faith a try.

From what I've read of the Buffy and Angel comics, Season Eight is probably the weakest.

What do you think of Buffy's romances? Do you agree, disagree? Was some random guy from one of the many episodes someone they should have made recurring? Discuss.

As I said, she never had a romance I like, but then, I don't primarily watch the show for the romances anyway.

I think I prefer Spike to the others because, outside of his relationship with Buffy, Spike is the most interesting character to me, and a lot of that is due to the fact that, in my opinion, James Marsters can act circles around David Boreanaz and Marc Blucas (not that either of them are bad, just that Marsters brings more energy and charisma to his performances than they do).

Edit: I'll add, though, that some of the best moments for both Angel and Spike were when they were acting as foils to each other.

[FaxModem1]

Edit: I'll add, though, that some of the best moments for both Angel and Spike were when they were acting as foils to each other.

Agreed.

WRT Riley:
Season 4 Riley was someone I liked. He was a dutiful person who had the wool pulled over his eyes, and he grew as a character. Season 5 Riley started off okay, but then morphed into this weird sexist guy who was stuck in the previous century. I'm glad they brought him back in season 6 to show that he and Buffy just didn't fit, and he's perfectly fine with a girl who can kick butt. But then, I'm fond of the Clark Kent/Steve Rogers All American Boy characters.

WRT Angel:
Yeah, the age thing is a bit creepy when you think about it. When it comes to vampires and other immortal characters, there's a question of 'is this a maturing person stuck in a youth's body, or is this a teenager who is eternal, like Peter Pan?' Writers on Buffy seemed to go back and forth on it.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think even when he died, Angel was a bit older than Buffy.

I'd also come down pretty strongly in favour of the "vampires can change and mature as they age" position. Many, perhaps most, don't seem to very much, but we do see old vampires adopting modern technology, popular culture, and so forth, and Angel and Spike are both very different people, in many ways, by the end of the series (though you could say that their basic personalities remain largely the same). And that's to some extent true even not counting the effects of losing/regaining a soul.

It would have been potentially interesting if Angel's relationship with Buffy was partly due to "values dissonance", though. Weren't values around the appropriate age to marry/have sex (or go off to battle) rather different when he was born? that wouldn't justify it, of course, and you would expect someone's values to change somewhat over time, but it would have been interesting if they had explored more the idea of Angel being someone who's values were somewhat out of step with the times, a product of a different world (and not just in regards to sex).

The only time I can recall them touching on it much was when they joked about Angel having no idea what money was worth today.

[FaxModem1]

I think even when he died, Angel was a bit older than Buffy.

I'd also come down pretty strongly in favour of the "vampires can change and mature as they age" position. Many, perhaps most, don't seem to very much, but we do see old vampires adopting modern technology, popular culture, and so forth, and Angel and Spike are both very different people, in many ways, by the end of the series (though you could say that their basic personalities remain largely the same). And that's to some extent true even not counting the effects of losing/regaining a soul.

It would have been potentially interesting if Angel's relationship with Buffy was partly due to "values dissonance", though. Weren't values around the appropriate age to marry/have sex (or go off to battle) rather different when he was born? that wouldn't justify it, of course, and you would expect someone's values to change somewhat over time, but it would have been interesting if they had explored more the idea of Angel being someone who's values were somewhat out of step with the times, a product of a different world (and not just in regards to sex).

The only time I can recall them touching on it much was when they joked about Angel having no idea what money was worth today.

In the infamous Halloween episode, when Buffy dressed as a traditional 'Belle of the Ball', Angel notes to Buffy that he found women of his time rather dull, as they were all demure and seemed to lack wit. It's why he much preferred Buffy, as she was very much a 20th century girl.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think even when he died, Angel was a bit older than Buffy.

I'd also come down pretty strongly in favour of the "vampires can change and mature as they age" position. Many, perhaps most, don't seem to very much, but we do see old vampires adopting modern technology, popular culture, and so forth, and Angel and Spike are both very different people, in many ways, by the end of the series (though you could say that their basic personalities remain largely the same). And that's to some extent true even not counting the effects of losing/regaining a soul.

It would have been potentially interesting if Angel's relationship with Buffy was partly due to "values dissonance", though. Weren't values around the appropriate age to marry/have sex (or go off to battle) rather different when he was born? that wouldn't justify it, of course, and you would expect someone's values to change somewhat over time, but it would have been interesting if they had explored more the idea of Angel being someone who's values were somewhat out of step with the times, a product of a different world (and not just in regards to sex).

The only time I can recall them touching on it much was when they joked about Angel having no idea what money was worth today.

In the infamous Halloween episode, when Buffy dressed as a traditional 'Belle of the Ball', Angel notes to Buffy that he found women of his time rather dull, as they were all demure and seemed to lack wit. It's why he much preferred Buffy, as she was very much a 20th century girl.

Ah, yes the first Halloween episode. Also introducing Ethan Rayne.

So...

Favourite characters? I believe we have one vote for Giles already.

[MissKittyFantastico]

Am I the only person' who's favourite season of Angel is One?

Mine too, season one first half specifically - I thought Angel/Cordy/Doyle worked fantastically as a lead trio. I remember reading he was created specifically to be killed off for shock value (and sadly Glenn Quinn's passing meant he never came back, although I heard it would have been as a villain, and I'm not a fan of that kind of stunt) but in the highly-theoretical 'if I'd been in charge' scenario, I'd have changed my mind on that one and kept him once I saw the early episodes. From then on, every time they reshuffled the cast or played around with the basic setup of the show it ended up not going in a direction that really grabbed me. By the time they moved into Wolfram & Hart I'd reached full-blown "What's even the point of this anymore?" - although, out of nowhere, Harmony became a gem amid the ruins.

What do you think of Buffy's romances?

To be honest I never really found Buffy's love life handled in a way I found especially compelling - not that I hated it, but it didn't hit home for me the way, say, Kira/Odo did, or Crichton/Aeryn, to pick a couple of examples that really work for me. Angel was okay for the first couple of years - not compelling, but if Buffy was going to be pining for someone I don't mind David Boreanaz, although the whole curse thing mainly just irked be for being poorly thought out (in-universe I mean, by the Kalderash, as a plot device it worked for drama, although I was far from happy to see Jenny Calendar go). I liked Riley on his introduction ("Forgot my manners in all the concussion," heh), but the Initiative really flopped for me as a concept - it just seemed incredibly shallow and poorly written, as a component of the setting - so he got dragged down by association, so next season when he started acting up he was already on thin ice with me and I was happy to see the back of him. Spike... I dunno, I think by then I'd tuned out a lot of the show that wasn't Her Holiness, and was just watching on a superficial level. I was okay with Spike being the token evil teammate for comedy's sake, since the chip in his head rendered him ultimately harmless - and I think James Marsters is hilarious - but I never bought into there being any potential for redemption for him, so I just wanted that 'relationship' to go away.

Faith, now... whether you want to go with the subtext or just take it as presented on screen, that was the one relationship of Buffy's that I did get interested in. Not just for gayness's sake (although I will say, Joss and co. excel at female characters in a way I don't feel they ever entirely matched with any of the men, excepting possibly Giles), but them being slayers, and the only ones of their kind - if they'd gone the relationship route with them, I'd have bought it, just because when one said "I understand" to the other, they actually would like nobody else in the world. (I ship them a bit, but usually in comedies, I've never really written them seriously; one time Faith was a MUTO.)

Favourite characters? I believe we have one vote for Giles already.

If we're just going with core cast (she did have main cast status, you know... for that episode... dammit Joss), Willow - and I say that honestly, she was my favourite even before s4. Second place is difficult for me to choose between Faith and Giles.

[The Romulan Republic]

Am I the only person' who's favourite season of Angel is One?

Mine too, season one first half specifically - I thought Angel/Cordy/Doyle worked fantastically as a lead trio. I remember reading he was created specifically to be killed off for shock value (and sadly Glenn Quinn's passing meant he never came back, although I heard it would have been as a villain, and I'm not a fan of that kind of stunt) but in the highly-theoretical 'if I'd been in charge' scenario, I'd have changed my mind on that one and kept him once I saw the early episodes. From then on, every time they reshuffled the cast or played around with the basic setup of the show it ended up not going in a direction that really grabbed me. By the time they moved into Wolfram & Hart I'd reached full-blown "What's even the point of this anymore?" - although, out of nowhere, Harmony became a gem amid the ruins.

I read somewhere that Doyle was written out because Glenn Quinn had a drug problem, though I don't recall the source, so take it with a grain of salt, as they say.

But I would say that, while "City Of" is quite possibly my favourite season premier of either Buffy or Angel (a pattern, in my opinion, with Buffy, and to a lesser extent Angel, is weak premiers and strong finales), and their were fairly good episodes throughout the first season of Angel (and indeed in every season), "Five by Five" is the point where the series really kicked into high gear for me.

Early Wesley on Angel, before he became a bitter shell of a human being, was quite good, and "Five by Five" was the point, more than any other, where he really came into his role as Angel's right hand man. Plus, of course, the Faith redemption arc, and in my opinion probably the best fight scene in Angel (and one of the best in either series), between Faith and Angel.

If we're just going with core cast (she did have main cast status, you know... for that episode... dammit Joss), Willow - and I say that honestly, she was my favourite even before s4. Second place is difficult for me to choose between Faith and Giles.

For me... Buffy has probably the most depth and development, and of course, none of it would exist without her. But, while early Buffy was quite likeable, she became much darker in later seasons. It makes sense, but its still not as much fun to watch for me.

Top characters for Buffy would probably be:

Giles and Spike, of course. Honorary mentions for Anya, for comedy; Tara, for being so nice; and Dawn (most of the time), who is just underrated by a lot of fans.

I mean, ask yourself: Who is more awesome? The superpowered Slayers, witches, and vampires who go out fighting evil, or the ordinary teenage girl who has to deal with it with nothing but whatever intelligence, courage, and skill she has? This is also why I consider one of Willow's most awesome moments to be not any of her magical feats later, but the moment in the second episode when she chases off Darla of all people with nothing more than a lucky shot with some holy water. Because she did it with out any special powers whatsoever.

Same goes for Xander, but he has too many glaring character flaws to rate quite as highly for me. Still, to loosely paraphrase a line from The Dresden Files: Say what you will about Xander, but he's got balls that drag on the ground when he walks.

"Cavalry's here. Cavalry's a scared guy with a rock, but its here."-Xander Harris.

For Angel:

Main Cast: Lorne.

Runners-up: Wesley (early on, mostly) and Fred. Also Spike again, of course.

For supporting characters/villains: Holland Manners and Holtz.

For comics: I'm most familiar with Angel and Faith, so...

Faith. Alsadair. Giles again.

Edit: Really, I can hardly overstate how wonderful Lorne was. The actor, Andy Hallet, did a magnificent job in terms of both acting and singing. He was amusing, charming, but also capable of being subtly intense and menacing on the rare occasions when the story called for it, and really, its arguably worth watching Angel just to listen to Lorne sing.