Star Wars Needs to Let the Dark Side Be More Interesting | Glass of Water - [Lily Orchard]

[Winter]

Yes, but Lucas has explicitly rejected the idea that the Jedi are about balance; he keeps insisting that they be the 'white-hats' a la a traditional Western.

I can't recall Lucas ever saying that and I'm pretty sure he said that the Jedi order is about Balance. As I said before, the Dark Side is corruption and self-interest. The Dark Side takes latter and makes it so everything becomes about you rather then about others and while selfishness is not inherently a bad (see Adora's arc over on She-Ra or the Heretic over on The Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance) the problem here is that ones who use the Dark Side can't think of anything else.

Anakin cared only about his wife and unborn children so he turned on the Jedi when they wouldn't tell him what he wanted to hear, Palpatine cared only of his own power and keeping it no matter how many worlds suffered for that goal, Kylo Ren... is a Vader fanboy, or someone who hates the past, or just wants power? Or just wants Rey at his side...? Well, whatever Kylo's motive is in the Trilogy it's still self interest and he doesn't care who he has to kill or what motive he wants for the script to work. I mean, to get what he wants.

Again, it's not really about making the Dark Side more interesting but rather taking the ideas of the Jedi & Sith and taking the positives and negatives of both Orders and ignoring the Force itself.

"Peace is a lie. There is only Passion.
Through Passion, I gain Strength.
Through Strength, I gain Power.
Through Power, I gain Victory.
Through Victory my chains are Broken.
The Force shall free me." The Sith Code

"There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force." The Jedi Code

Neither of these codes are bad or good, they simply are the code both live by. The Sith is all about Freedom, to embrace ones emotions and to do as one sees fit. The Jedi are all about balance and order, to use ones powers to enlighten ones self but for the benefit of others.

The Jedi Order is flawed as shown in the Prequel Trilogy and The Clone Wars but the Sith is worse because while they talk a good game about freedom what most Sith really want is freedom for themselves, damn everyone else. The Jedi can be ineffective and sometimes passive to the point of being useless but the Sith see what they want and take it regardless of how many bodies they leave in their path.

And yet it's possible to be Sith and NOT give in to the Dark Side. Let's look at the Heretic from Dark Crystal, all he wants is to be reunited with his Mystic Counterpart and be whole BUT he doesn't try to burn the world around him to achieve this goal. He sees the value in those around him who can help him in his cause and treats them with respect and kindness. He may be a Skeksis who has a rather F#ed up past but he does want to change. Adora's whole arc is learning that wanting happiness for herself does not make her a bad person and her having a happy ending is a threat to no one OTHER than the villain. Sasha's whole goal in the series is to have Anne as her friend but she comes to learn how terrible person she is and seeks to better herself to be someone who deserves Anne (her words not mine).

The Dark Side is like the Old Ones in the Cthulhu Mythos, it is evil and drives those who use it mad with power. A Sith can use the Force and NOT fall to the Dark Side, as shown with Ripley on Chuck's reviews, and a Jedi can follow the Code of their Order to the letter and become as bad as any Sith Lord, see most of the Jedi in Chuck's TOR reviews so far.

So, to answer the point of this whole discussion the Dark Side is evil but a Sith can be good just like a Jedi can be evil. The Force is, by all accounts, self-aware and seeks to guide things along a certain path but there are two sides of the Force what side of the Force wants what is a bit harder to understand.

[CharlesPhipps]

Yes, but Lucas has explicitly rejected the idea that the Jedi are about balance; he keeps insisting that they be the 'white-hats' a la a traditional Western.

Isn't that the exact opposite? He claims that the Force is about Balance and the Dark SIde is imbalance?

I.e there's no Light Side, just the Force and the Dark Side is what you get when you get imbalanced?

[Nealithi]

Anakin cared only about his wife and unborn children so he turned on the Jedi when they wouldn't tell him what he wanted to hear,

See I don't think it is that they did not tell him what he wanted to hear. He tells Yoda he has had a vision of someone dying. Yoda tells him he has to learn to let it happen.

These are the protectors and healers. And you go say someone is going to die, can you help? And they basically toss the Prime Directive. What?

Now Palpatine? Oh he used some honey when he spun his words. Even being a chess master with all of it. "No Jedi can." and all the rest. Even his line about Dooku being too dangerous to allow to live. Anakin kills Dooku and thinks he was wrong. Palps assured him he 'did the right thing'. So when Mace goes in for the kill saying Palpatine was too dangerous to live. Anakin was already primed to go the wrong way.

Anakin may not have been an angel. But the Jedi would not help him, and Palpatine was the epitome of a diplomat.
Someone that can tell you to go to hell in such a way you look forward to the trip.

[CharlesPhipps]

See I don't think it is that they did not tell him what he wanted to hear. He tells Yoda he has had a vision of someone dying. Yoda tells him he has to learn to let it happen.

These are the protectors and healers. And you go say someone is going to die, can you help? And they basically toss the Prime Directive. What?

To Yoda's credit, Anakin's deceptiveness is at fault here as well. If I had a vision of my 80 year old father dying before it happened, it would be a very different response from me than if my teenage nieces were. Anakin isn't sharing he's seeing his wife dying in childbirth. Yoda is trying to give some good life advice about palliative care and grieving.

And here's the irony, if Anakin HAD NOT been obsessive about preventing it, it would never have happened.

[Winter]

See I don't think it is that they did not tell him what he wanted to hear. He tells Yoda he has had a vision of someone dying. Yoda tells him he has to learn to let it happen.

These are the protectors and healers. And you go say someone is going to die, can you help? And they basically toss the Prime Directive. What?

To Yoda's credit, Anakin's deceptiveness is at fault here as well. If I had a vision of my 80 year old father dying before it happened, it would be a very different response from me than if my teenage nieces were. Anakin isn't sharing he's seeing his wife dying in childbirth. Yoda is trying to give some good life advice about palliative care and grieving.

And here's the irony, if Anakin HAD NOT been obsessive about preventing it, it would never have happened.

Further more, Anakin DIDN'T ask for help from the Jedi. He didn't go to Yoda asking for help and he himself says "I won't let these visions come true." Yoda sees the flaw in this line of thought and tries to offer some words of wisdom as someone who has lost friends and loved ones for over 900 years. And we see during Order 66 he DOES feel grief at the loss of his fellow Jedi and no doubt felt something similar when he was forced to kill his Clone Troopers but didn't let it consume him. Yoda excepted what became of them and worked to save those who were still alive.

Yoda may very well have had visions of this moment or may have guessed something like this was coming and he no doubt tried to prevent it. And when it came he didn't go after Palpatine for Revenge but because this was the only chance he had to kill him and prevent further suffering and when Padme dies he clearly saddened by her death but again, does not morn for her and instead focuses on saving her children.

Anakin is OBSESSED with protecting his friends and loved ones, to the point that he considers any other time they are harmed a personal failing on himself and seeks revenge against ANYONE even slightly connected to that death which is more then a little disproportionate (keep in mind he killed ALL the Sand People who were within that village even if most of them had nothing to do with the death of his mother). I understand wanting revenge but Anakin is not willing to settle for anything other then the deaths of all he blames for his failings.

Anakin wants to save Padme and says he will do so but Yoda tries to offer him some words of comfort should he fail. He doesn't say "Do nothing" he says "Don't let the death of those you love control your better judgement".

Anakin wants to hear Yoda give him an answer on how to change this future but Yoda can't do that all he can do is warn him to not give into grief and to let go of he fears to loose. Anakin, can't except that as it doesn't fit with his own character. This is a case of Anakin not getting the answer he wants and Yoda is being overall reasonable and keep in mind that at the of Return of the Jedi Anakin doesn't fight to hold on and instead just let's go and hopes that what he did was enough.

[Nealithi]

Uh no. He asks "You or someone else."
Anakin: "Someone."
Yoda: "Someone close?"
Anakin: "Yes"
Yoda: "Fear of loss is a path to the darkside."
Anakin: "I won't let these visions come true."
Yoda: "Death is natural. Rejoice in one becoming one with the force."

That is not help people. That is let everyone die for they go to a better place. Anakin even mentioned the person was in pain and suffering. That does not come off as don't let it control your better judgment. It comes off as there is a greater plan and who are we to intervene. Which is a contradiction to the jedi are peace keepers and healers.
Oh and this is yet another of Anakin was setup. Yes he lost control in the Tusken Raider camp. And he broke down in tears to Padme because of his guilt. If he had minded his previous visions. Done something. Then neither his mother nor the Tusken would have died. Now he has another batch of visions and the jedi brush them off with a 'let them die' philosophy.

I get it the path to hell is paved in good intentions. But the jedi were giving directions down the path here.

[CmdrKing]

The Dark Side is corruption the Light Side is compassion. Dark is not evil and light is not good but those who seek to benefit only themselves damn the fall out to those around them and those who use their power in defense of others even if the world damns them for being "unrealistic" or "stupid".

The problem I have with "Let the past die" concept (which is something Rian Johnson himself has made a big deal out of) is that it ignores one of the most important lessons of all time "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

I think this misses what’s actually being said in TLJ, and why it says it. The best point of comparison is actually KotOR2, and both are picking up on a similar interpretation of the prequels: the Jedi, with their dogmatic, aloof interpretation of the Force, were perpetuating the light/dark conflict themselves. The Sith did all their own dirty work, but did so by taking advantage of the Jedi, not purely through their own power.

They reach very different conclusions though. Avellone goes meta, and concludes that the Force itself (as proxy for Star Wars and it’s storytelling as a whole) is wicked, two halves of a whole forcing the same battles to take place over and over again throughout history. You can argue that Kreia’s defeat suggest this is also wrong, but it’s presented as an uncomfortable truth that the player may accept or reject as they will and Kreia’s defeat has too many possible motivations to totally discount her.

Johnson concludes that the Jedi (and by extension the Sith) have wildly misinterpreted the nature of the Force over the millennia. The solution is to take the original teachings and learn directly from them, and letting new orders, new ideas arise from understanding those originals. That the problem had nothing to do with the Force itself (and indeed that the Dark Side was just an empty manifestation of the wielder’s ego) and everything to do with the accumulated dogma, the rigid adherence to authority and tradition. What perpetuated the same conflict over and over was that both sides kept doing the exact same things, out of rigid belief they were the only way to do things.

[Nealithi]

Not entirely sure I agree with Kreia or Johnson as they are shown. But the whole dogma perpetuating the cycle does sound right to me.

[CharlesPhipps]

That is not help people. That is let everyone die for they go to a better place. Anakin even mentioned the person was in pain and suffering. That does not come off as don't let it control your better judgment. It comes off as there is a greater plan and who are we to intervene. Which is a contradiction to the jedi are peace keepers and healers.

Again, the lack of context is screwing Anakin. Is this person dying of old age? Lingering illness?

It also runs smack into the fact that PADME WONT DIE if Anakin doesn't go nuts over it.

Yoda is 100% correct that obsessing over prophecies will fuck you over.

The Greeks knew this, so do the Jedi.

[Nealithi]

That is not help people. That is let everyone die for they go to a better place. Anakin even mentioned the person was in pain and suffering. That does not come off as don't let it control your better judgment. It comes off as there is a greater plan and who are we to intervene. Which is a contradiction to the jedi are peace keepers and healers.

Again, the lack of context is screwing Anakin. Is this person dying of old age? Lingering illness?

It also runs smack into the fact that PADME WONT DIE if Anakin doesn't go nuts over it.

Yoda is 100% correct that obsessing over prophecies will fuck you over.

The Greeks knew this, so do the Jedi.

Okay. Then why do they give a damn about the future being cloudy. Any foresight is a form of prophecy. But the Jedi think they should not let out that their vision (that should be ignored) isn't working so they are weaker than usual.
Either foresight is of value or it isn't. If you will not work to alter anything, why look at all?

Look I agree Anakin hit a self fulfilling bit here. But the jedi being correct and righteous on a let them die attitude flies in the face of what they are supposed to stand for. And is the polar opposite of our arguments on the Prime Directive in Trek. They see someone dying, eh step over them its natural.