Lower Decks Season 4

[clearspira]

Whatever you want to say about Janeway killing Tuvix, she had a legitimate reason for doing so. ''I am 70 years from home, I want my tactical officer and cook back.'' She took a command decision based on what she believed to be in the best interests of her crew. Might be right, might be wrong, but it wasn't just because she felt like it. I could see any of the other main captains taking this decision - heck, we know for a fact that Archer would and he would spit in your face whilst doing so.

But in this episode they are at home. Right next to Starfleet. And not in any danger. No one is going to be killing you. Bad writing for cheap jokes.

[Madner Kami]

"Your Honor, Starfleet was founded to find new life. Well there it sits!" - A certain Captain, who would disagree.

[CharlesPhipps]

Whatever you want to say about Janeway killing Tuvix, she had a legitimate reason for doing so. ''I am 70 years from home, I want my tactical officer and cook back.'' She took a command decision based on what she believed to be in the best interests of her crew. Might be right, might be wrong, but it wasn't just because she felt like it. I could see any of the other main captains taking this decision - heck, we know for a fact that Archer would and he would spit in your face whilst doing so.

But in this episode they are at home. Right next to Starfleet. And not in any danger. No one is going to be killing you. Bad writing for cheap jokes.

Clearspira, did you actually watch the episode or are you making a joke? I'm genuinely not sure and was curious if you could clarify. Because that's literally what Captain Freeman says.

[CharlesPhipps]

Thinking about the original "Tuvix" moral dilemma.

I dunno, if we get the technology to eventually resurrect someone and it required someone else to die, then it gets thornier with the idea Neelix and Tuvok aren't there anymore. The ethical dilemma is not that they're not there anymore but they CAN be saved in the same way someone trapped in a pattern buffer or something would be.

I'm inclined to view this episode very differently from other show watchers, though, as I think the ethical dilemma here isn't nearly as unprecedented or weird as people make it out to be. I think that TOS and DS9 (more than TNG) made it clear that it is BASIC expectation of a Starfleet officer that you have to make questionably ethical life and death choices all the time.

Kobatashi Maru, anyone?

One of the earliest tests to see if Wesley Crusher had the stones (or whatever the nongendered version of it is in the 24th century) was whether or not he could leave a man to die to save someone else. VOY and ENT tried to softpedal this sort of thing (at least until ENT Season 3) but part of the reason Redshirts exist is because sometimes you have to send someone to die. Deana Troi did it to get her promotion.

To save two of her crew, Janeway had to let a random alien die. It's terrible but it's something I expect every Starfleet officer to do in this situation unless there's a greater good involved like the Prime Directive.

So I'm of the mind Captain Freeman would have straight up murdered him if she had to but sought a better option. I doubt she'd have found one, though.

[Madner Kami]

Janeway literally had to kill Tuvix, to "ressurect" Tuvok and Neelix. And the arguement of "but I need my tactical officer and this guide" doesn't count, because their abilities and knowledge were still there and, as the episode points out, Tuvix was good at Tuvok's job. And this isn't a situation where the "organ donor" would die soon as well. Tuvix was doing well. He was alive. He literally had to be dissected alive, molecule by molecule, atom by atom, to necro Tuvok and Neelix.

Worse yet, there's precedent for duplicating people via the transporter. She didn't look for an alternative. She just looked to get Tuvok back. And seriously? "Archer would've done it!" counts as a good example these days? The only thing I can think about when hearing this is:

The Codex Astartes is a set of rules. They guide us, shape us as Ultramarines, teach us to hold duty and honor sacred above all, but how we live with those rules is the true test of a Space Marine. And you... have failed.

When Warhammer 40k is more humanitarian and teaching a better lesson about living through times which demand you to adapt or break and accepting the consequences of your actions, than Star Trek and it's fans, then we're in for some truely dark times.

[hammerofglass]

Tuvix would have been a much better story in a series that didn't so aggressively hit the reset button every episode. What it needed was lasting consequences that took what happened seriously. You can have Janeway still sure that it was the right decision and defend itbut the Doctor should have had his faith in her completely shattered while Tuvok and Neelix should have been deeply traumatized. Maybe have one agree Janeway made the right decision and the other never forgive her. And for gods' sake have people who mourn his passing.

[m4a2000]

Clearspira, did you actually watch the episode or are you making a joke? I'm genuinely not sure and was curious if you could clarify. Because that's literally what Captain Freeman says.

And Shaxs. They were heading to Earth anyways with Voyager and the plan was to go to SF HQ and say, "Hey, can we not kill this new person and still get the original two back?"

Moving on to I Have No Bones, Yet I Must Flee. I kind of hate that all of the romulans are ALL backstabbers. Outside of the teaser we have 3 plots. Boimler's is meh. I find it hard to believe he didn't know about the blinders. Also no sound proofing on a Holodeck seems stupid... Unless the room the Boimler tried second use to be a soundproofing area slash maintenance section. I could see a space like that being converted to quarters if, after years of time and upgrades, the tech to run the Holedecks was made smaller.

Rutherford 's plot was nice though I was thinking they would have waited another episode to draw out how the others would react with not having their friend around. I think it would have made the joke about him turning down other promotions funnier.

The main plot at first had me worried, but WOOT! Mariner listened to someone! And again way to go Ransom for looking deeper. Moopsy is just one of those things that makes you go 'yeah, that should of happened sooner.' Cute cuddly terror is always fun.

[clearspira]

Whatever you want to say about Janeway killing Tuvix, she had a legitimate reason for doing so. ''I am 70 years from home, I want my tactical officer and cook back.'' She took a command decision based on what she believed to be in the best interests of her crew. Might be right, might be wrong, but it wasn't just because she felt like it. I could see any of the other main captains taking this decision - heck, we know for a fact that Archer would and he would spit in your face whilst doing so.

But in this episode they are at home. Right next to Starfleet. And not in any danger. No one is going to be killing you. Bad writing for cheap jokes.

Clearspira, did you actually watch the episode or are you making a joke? I'm genuinely not sure and was curious if you could clarify. Because that's literally what Captain Freeman says.

Pointing out bad writing doesn't make something not be bad writing.

''Wow! What an utterly contrived set of circumstances, the sort of thing you would find in a bad movie!''
''I know right!''
*Movie continues exactly the way it was, content that it is self-aware and thus people will now defend it its shittest elements*

[clearspira]

Janeway literally had to kill Tuvix, to "ressurect" Tuvok and Neelix. And the arguement of "but I need my tactical officer and this guide" doesn't count, because their abilities and knowledge were still there and, as the episode points out, Tuvix was good at Tuvok's job. And this isn't a situation where the "organ donor" would die soon as well. Tuvix was doing well. He was alive. He literally had to be dissected alive, molecule by molecule, atom by atom, to necro Tuvok and Neelix.

Worse yet, there's precedent for duplicating people via the transporter. She didn't look for an alternative. She just looked to get Tuvok back. And seriously? "Archer would've done it!" counts as a good example these days? The only thing I can think about when hearing this is:

The Codex Astartes is a set of rules. They guide us, shape us as Ultramarines, teach us to hold duty and honor sacred above all, but how we live with those rules is the true test of a Space Marine. And you... have failed.

When Warhammer 40k is more humanitarian and teaching a better lesson about living through times which demand you to adapt or break and accepting the consequences of your actions, than Star Trek and it's fans, then we're in for some truely dark times.

I already referenced him, but nevertheless its Archer time:


"I have his memories. I have his feelings. I have his body. How am I not Trip?"
"I must complete this mission! And to do that I need Trip! Trip! I'll take whatever steps necessary to save him."
"Even if it means killing me?"
"Even if it means killing you."

It could have done without the spitting in the face, but Archer is right and Janeway is right. Archer merely had the balls to say it more bluntly.

Two crewmembers are better than one. Tuvix cannot be on the bridge and in the mess hall at the same time. Tuvix cannot patrol the halls for intruders and look after Naomi at the same time. Tuvix cannot perform the security evaluations and be the ship's guide at the same time. Tuvix cannot go on an Away Team and help out in the airponics bay at the same time.

The fact that the skills are shared are irrelevant. Tuvok and Neelix are more important to Voyager's survival than Tuvix. Every captain would have done the exact same thing.

[Thebestoftherest]

Umm Nelix is a terrible cook, and we know that they have they have lower officers have a rotation of that any not vital personal cook in Nelix place. Heck that means the kitchen won't be held but someone who insists on messing with your people traditional food because he feel like it. And if something breaks won't order the pregnant woman to fix it.