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McAvoy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 4:54 am

Nobody700 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:47 am I see it as retribution for Enterprise, the WHITEST show ever made. Every episode of season 1 and 2 just screamed 'white guy' to me, and T'Pol and Archer are the worst two. Absolute fap material, and daddy got me the job strong energy. Mayweather and Hoshi make it worse, coming off not as characters but 'token black' and 'token other woman' or worse, 'token asian'. These two got the shaft HARD, and while the mirror universe two parter was good revenge, this is better revenge.

Fair enough. You do what you want to do. By all means fap what you want to do. Go for that exaggerating post. I am sure that makes your point.

Give me one episode plot about Mayweather and Hoshi. Before you bring up any of Hoshi's, remove any of hers that's about her being boned by an alien dude.

Discovery had one season, half the length of Enterprise, with Pike and he had quite a few plots to himself and was considered a legend on the show and was a hero through and through everyone liked and respected. He's also cis, het, and very white. I like Pike. So what's YOUR problem with a cast being mostly non white guys. Cause your whole argument just comes off WEIRD to me.

Riedquat wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 9:55 am

Nobody700 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:47 am I see it as retribution for Enterprise, the WHITEST show ever made. Every episode of season 1 and 2 just screamed 'white guy' to me, and T'Pol and Archer are the worst two. Absolute fap material, and daddy got me the job strong energy. Mayweather and Hoshi make it worse, coming off not as characters but 'token black' and 'token other woman' or worse, 'token asian'. These two got the shaft HARD, and while the mirror universe two parter was good revenge, this is better revenge.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Generally speaking I don't have a problem with any show that looks like the cast are largely from wherever it's made, unless that's completely out of place for its setting. I do have an issue with pushing agendas though, unless that's a fundamental part of the show.

Okay let me be MEAN. What's wrong with an agenda that says 'In the future, we don't see a black woman leading a ship full of people of all ethnicities as being weird'. Before you say you have zero problems with that agenda, I believe you. What I mean is, what's your beef with agenda pushing when almost all media pushes one, and trust me, I seen the worst of them.

Riedquat just doesn't feel represented. That's a valid concern, is it not?

As for my postmortem on Discovery: Good riddance. Not gonna miss a show that ignores canon so much, that Enterprise of all shows is a masterpiece by comparison in that regard.

Discovery was a lot of interesting concepts that never quite jelled in a story that could never decide on a tone. And then every season they would dump those concepts and create a new set of interesting concepts that never quite jelled.

The first season where they were apparently going for what a twelve year old considers edgy and cool was the worst by a significant margin, two was ok, three I really liked even if I thought they were far too eager to wrap up the mystery and slam the reset button to restore status quo instead of continuing with the new setting they had built, four left no impression on me good or bad to the point I barely remember it, five was a shaggy dog story but it had it's moments.

Overall 5/10, it was OK.

My quick thoughts on Discovery

1. Characters. Michael got too much, and everyone else not enough. While the later seasons DID improve on the latter, Michael still got too much. Michael is no Archer, who I wanted to throat punch, and Picard taught me how ANNOYING a cast can be, but we needed half of Michael. If we did, she would have been way better.

2. The universe is in danger. Season 1 and 2 needed to stop this, season 3 was also guilty but by god, 4 and 5 had stakes I could handle. More personal, less everything ever.

3. Mushroom power. Erase it.

4. Lore problems. A L O T.

5. Blue. This show was really blue in season 1. Too blue. Grosely blue. The rest of the show fixed it. This is a good thing.

Nobody700 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:59 pm

Riedquat wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 9:55 am

Nobody700 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:47 am I see it as retribution for Enterprise, the WHITEST show ever made. Every episode of season 1 and 2 just screamed 'white guy' to me, and T'Pol and Archer are the worst two. Absolute fap material, and daddy got me the job strong energy. Mayweather and Hoshi make it worse, coming off not as characters but 'token black' and 'token other woman' or worse, 'token asian'. These two got the shaft HARD, and while the mirror universe two parter was good revenge, this is better revenge.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Generally speaking I don't have a problem with any show that looks like the cast are largely from wherever it's made, unless that's completely out of place for its setting. I do have an issue with pushing agendas though, unless that's a fundamental part of the show.

Okay let me be MEAN. What's wrong with an agenda that says 'In the future, we don't see a black woman leading a ship full of people of all ethnicities as being weird'. Before you say you have zero problems with that agenda, I believe you. What I mean is, what's your beef with agenda pushing when almost all media pushes one, and trust me, I seen the worst of them.

I do not like an agenda hijacking reality. You have a character that went behind their captain's back, mutinied, and started a war. Versus has a horrible vision of their own very painful crippling injuries. Doubts their ability to command with this knowledge. But dutifully works to rescue their trapped people and maybe save an entire planet by showing them what mistakes can cost.

Which one do you want to watch? Then you are casually told that the mutineer keeps being right because of gender or skin color?

A bad argument can also hurt your agenda while a good one can reinforce it. TNG the species that thought they had a plague but were actually hooked on a narcotic. Nobody on the ship was for the lie. The final solution even Picard was not happy with. But with his hands tied it was the best he could do. Best you can do sometimes is the realistic outcome. Now take the warp power pollutes episode. The aliens were ecoterrorists that caused the very destruction they supposedly wanted to prevent just to validate themselves. No one holds the terrorist or the episode in high regard because the argument missed the point.

Nobody700 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:59 pm

Riedquat wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 9:55 am

Nobody700 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:47 am I see it as retribution for Enterprise, the WHITEST show ever made. Every episode of season 1 and 2 just screamed 'white guy' to me, and T'Pol and Archer are the worst two. Absolute fap material, and daddy got me the job strong energy. Mayweather and Hoshi make it worse, coming off not as characters but 'token black' and 'token other woman' or worse, 'token asian'. These two got the shaft HARD, and while the mirror universe two parter was good revenge, this is better revenge.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Generally speaking I don't have a problem with any show that looks like the cast are largely from wherever it's made, unless that's completely out of place for its setting. I do have an issue with pushing agendas though, unless that's a fundamental part of the show.

Okay let me be MEAN. What's wrong with an agenda that says 'In the future, we don't see a black woman leading a ship full of people of all ethnicities as being weird'. Before you say you have zero problems with that agenda, I believe you. What I mean is, what's your beef with agenda pushing when almost all media pushes one, and trust me, I seen the worst of them.

What makes you think I'm OK with other things pushing agendas? Well, unless that's the whole point anyway. If not, trying to shoehorn them in inevitably looks self-righteous and smug, and comes to the detriment of the show.

You can have that vision of the future without it being an agenda shaping your story, without it coming across as a message you're actively trying to push. And if you do that it works better anyway.

Madner Kami wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 3:07 pm Riedquat just doesn't feel represented. That's a valid concern, is it not?

As for my postmortem on Discovery: Good riddance. Not gonna miss a show that ignores canon so much, that Enterprise of all shows is a masterpiece by comparison in that regard.

It's more a case of I'm tired of "look at us! Look how great we are!"

Nobody700 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:56 pm

McAvoy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 4:54 am

Nobody700 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:47 am I see it as retribution for Enterprise, the WHITEST show ever made. Every episode of season 1 and 2 just screamed 'white guy' to me, and T'Pol and Archer are the worst two. Absolute fap material, and daddy got me the job strong energy. Mayweather and Hoshi make it worse, coming off not as characters but 'token black' and 'token other woman' or worse, 'token asian'. These two got the shaft HARD, and while the mirror universe two parter was good revenge, this is better revenge.

Fair enough. You do what you want to do. By all means fap what you want to do. Go for that exaggerating post. I am sure that makes your point.

Give me one episode plot about Mayweather and Hoshi. Before you bring up any of Hoshi's, remove any of hers that's about her being boned by an alien dude.

Discovery had one season, half the length of Enterprise, with Pike and he had quite a few plots to himself and was considered a legend on the show and was a hero through and through everyone liked and respected. He's also cis, het, and very white. I like Pike. So what's YOUR problem with a cast being mostly non white guys. Cause your whole argument just comes off WEIRD to me.

Well this is easy. Enterprise was famous for Mayweather, especially him behind when it came to storytelling and character building. It was a complaint by most of the fans. They didn't write him to be a glorified extra because well he is black, they just didn't know how to write him. Also Mayweather being black never ever came up in the show as being part of his character. He was a boomer and the way his character was portrayed in the show, he could have been literally any other race.

Hoshi was better though. She had an early episode of getting over her fears on an alien ship filled with dead bodies. The episode where she thought she was vanishing was a heavy Hoshi episode where it even gives you an idea in her own psyche. Another episode where she was supposed to be a companion for some lonely long lived alien. The achievements and acknowledgements for that episode for Hoshi so far wasn't picked out of the blue but reinforces what we know of about her. She was even out in command of the Enterprise and disobeyed an order to destroy the array in the Terra Prime episodes. There are many episodes where her being able to translate alien languages helped save the ship or crew throughout the series.

There are your examples and I did not bring up the Risa episode.

Hoshi and Mayweather were part of the main cast.

So the fact that Pike was a significant part of Season 2 of Discovery basically used up the quota for the white cis male for the rest of the series? Whereas all I am talking about is just a background character who may not even be given a name having a handful of lines in an entire season? This is Star Trek and I have absolutely no problem with a ship filled of every race, background, gender, sex and orientation from Earth. This is Star Trek, in that sort of future all of that is supposed to be past them. There would be no 'minorities' on that ship anymore.

McAvoy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 04, 2024 1:23 am Whereas all I am talking about is just a background character who may not even be given a name having a handful of lines in an entire season?

I quit the series like half-way through the fourth season. It seemed like the show kinda had a problem with having an extended main cast like that in general.