Discussing the Use (or lack thereof) of Female Characters in Dragon Ball

[clearspira]

(Controversial opinion time) I think that the Japanese understand marketing far better than Americans do. One of the reasons imo that Manga outsells American comics is because American comics nowadays are aimed at everyone. And you know the adage about trying to please everyone? Yep - you end up pleasing no one.

To put this in American terms - Boys typically do not want a Barbie for Christmas and girls typically do not want an Action Man for Christmas (I believe it is known as a GI Joe in America). Normally a product aimed at one sex that ends up being enjoyed by both is because that product has terrific writing, and that is fine. Dragonball is one such example of ''a brilliant show enjoyed by both'' but Toriyama flat out admits that this was not his intention. He just wanted to make stories for boys.

I would point out that Hasbro with their shows did not want female GI. Joe or Transformers. And no male appeal in MLP. That boys were watching the show was considered a failing by the management. So is it that everything must appeal because owners do not understand marketing, or the public demanded it because we desired inclusivity because more than one demographic can enjoy something?

Maybe I did not explain myself well and that is my fault. I am very partial to a word salad as you can probably tell lol.

I think that the preferred goal is a work that can be enjoyed by all. Not just for inclusive reasons but also for profit reasons. 100% of the audience means 100% of the profits - even the Ferengi worked that one out in the end.

But, I do not believe that you can deliberately set out to create a work that is beloved by all. You get there by aiming a product at a particular group but make it of such quality that other people can enjoy it too. That way you get 100% of the first 50%, but also 25% of the other 50%. It is not a zero sum game, there will always be overlap between the demographics.

Barbie is one of the best selling films ever - but it was not aimed at men. Men watched it because it was a good film.

Or, let's take Star Trek. Star Trek was never aimed at women. That is why TOS has cleavage and miniskirts everywhere. That is why TNG has a woman in a catsuit. And Voyager has a woman in a catsuit. And ENT has a woman in a catsuit. Even DS9 has Kira and Jadzia with obviously padded bras. It is very clear who they thought their demo was. But did women watch it? Absolutely. Because it was good and good breaks barriers. If you try and please everyone then you will please no one.

[Nealithi]

(Controversial opinion time) I think that the Japanese understand marketing far better than Americans do. One of the reasons imo that Manga outsells American comics is because American comics nowadays are aimed at everyone. And you know the adage about trying to please everyone? Yep - you end up pleasing no one.

To put this in American terms - Boys typically do not want a Barbie for Christmas and girls typically do not want an Action Man for Christmas (I believe it is known as a GI Joe in America). Normally a product aimed at one sex that ends up being enjoyed by both is because that product has terrific writing, and that is fine. Dragonball is one such example of ''a brilliant show enjoyed by both'' but Toriyama flat out admits that this was not his intention. He just wanted to make stories for boys.

I would point out that Hasbro with their shows did not want female GI. Joe or Transformers. And no male appeal in MLP. That boys were watching the show was considered a failing by the management. So is it that everything must appeal because owners do not understand marketing, or the public demanded it because we desired inclusivity because more than one demographic can enjoy something?

If Hasbro didn't want female members of GI Joe, they'd not have made female characters in the toy line which we know they did. Scarlett after all was one of the original GI Joe figures.

The versions I have seen said Hasbro didn't want to make Scarlet, Baroness, Lady Jane, nor Cover Girl. Pressure from writers they acquiesced to got those figures on the shelves.

[McAvoy]

In fairness, this is a criticism you can land against most Shonen - a word that translates to ''product aimed at young Japanese boys.'' It is understandable to look at these things through Western eyes - you cannot pluck them out and use someone else's eyes after all - but the Japanese historically have a very different view of gender dynamics. They are quite happy with the female characters standing aside with large boobs and/or dinner on the table whilst the lead buff men go off and fight something. The female character fighting something seriously is normally a Special Episode rather than a full plot.

And BTW Shoujo is just the same but in reverse so it isn't all one way.

(Controversial opinion time) I think that the Japanese understand marketing far better than Americans do. One of the reasons imo that Manga outsells American comics is because American comics nowadays are aimed at everyone. And you know the adage about trying to please everyone? Yep - you end up pleasing no one.

To put this in American terms - Boys typically do not want a Barbie for Christmas and girls typically do not want an Action Man for Christmas (I believe it is known as a GI Joe in America). Normally a product aimed at one sex that ends up being enjoyed by both is because that product has terrific writing, and that is fine. Dragonball is one such example of ''a brilliant show enjoyed by both'' but Toriyama flat out admits that this was not his intention. He just wanted to make stories for boys.

My point isn't trying to please everyone it's about pointing out that there are a number of characters that were heavily underutilized. There's a reason I mentioned Yamcha and Tien alongside Chi-Chi, 18 and Vidal. To once again go to my example before, Chi-Chi could have easily been involved in the Saiyan Invasion arc without taking anything away from the other characters while adding to the cathartic factor of Vegeta's defeat.

Just have Chi-Chi show up towards the end and help out during the fight with Vegeta like Yajirobe does. This is a regular Earthly, who is able to deal some damage to the Prideful Saiyan Prince which further humiliates him even as she ends up beaten and bloody alongside everyone else.

And again, the beatdown of Vidal in the Buu saga. Again, I'm pretty even Toriyama regretted how this was handled as it was a needlessly brutal and bloody beatdown and no one stepping in to help her. This was overly cruel and frankly off putting and most fans agree was a mistake.

I would argue that the real issue with the show isn't how it handles it's characters but how it over focused on Goku and Vegeta which lead to other characters getting tossed to the side.

One thing I enjoyed about Naruto was how the series managed to keep the focus on several characters instead of just the title character. We'd get whole arcs where Naruto either was a supporting role to someone else, only had a cameo or made no real appearance at all.

My favorite saga in the series is the Cell saga which gave a bit more focus to most of the supporting cast, giving less focus to Vegeta and Goku but not tossing them to the side completely. The anime did an even better job by expanding on Gohan who doesn't get a whole lot of focus in this arc despite being the one it's suppose to be about. Did you know his transformation into Super Saiyan is an anime original scene? Yeah, we never see this happen in the manga which frankly diminishes his character.

One of the reasons the movie Dragon Ball Super Hero is so well liked among fans is that it gives more focus to characters who have been out of focus for almost a decade, Piccolo, Pan and Gohan. I actually do have a soft spot for the DB movie Bio-Broly because it gave more attention to 18 as while she's not the main focus it's more then what we got in the show.

Because this does tie-into it somewhat I would mention that if given a chance to reboot the series this is something I would do. Shift focus around to other characters and see what's going on so they can get more focus instead of just focusing on Goku and Vegeta.

Honestly thinking it over here's something that can be done with the Namek Saga. Focus on the Z Fighters in the afterlife as they make their way to King Kai and their training, keep Bulma on Earth and bring Chi-Chi to Namek. Chi-Chi and Krillin take terns guarding the Dragon Balls and they all deal with the Ginyu Force before Goku shows up.

Meanwhile we get a mini-arc on Earth as she searches for the Dragon Balls once Piccolo is brought back as they need to use them fast just in case Piccolo is killed again. 3 or 5 episodes max which can even include the Pilaf gang where they are once again trying to find and use the MacGuffins but now Bulma has to do this on her own with only Yajirobe and Roshi for help.

Gives us a chance to spend time with several characters that either advances the plot or helps further develop the characters.

And stills fits within the series' style as it gives us action and comedy with characters we like. And the focus would still be on Goku and Vegeta they just now aren't the only ones we focus on all the time.

The problem here is Chi Chi. She wasn't a main character but a side one. Tien and Yamcha were until it became a Sayian only show. That basically ended once Goku showed up to fight Nappa.

Chi Chi being a fighter goes against her character. She is a mother first. She wants to protect Gohan and drive him to not be a fighter but a scholar of some kind. She initially let up with Goten but in Super she seems to want the same for him as well. The whole show is about that.

Whereas Bulma gives Trunks alot of slack. Maybe due to Vegeta but also because she is different from Chi Chi.

Yes, at one point Chi Chi was probably the most powerful female until 18 showed up.

Chi Chi would not go to Namek of Goku was still injured. She would have not gone with Krillin to Namek leaving both Gohan and Goku on Earth. She may be powerful but she isn't even in the same league as Yajirobe.

I can buy into Chi Chi coming in to the battlefield to go save Goku and Gohan against Vegeta. I can buy that. I can even buy into maybe taking Yajirobe's place in this case. He was always a joke character anyway.

But going to Namek with Krillin in place of Bulma? Doesn't make sense. Bulma is the tech wizard driving a alien ship.

Have her train? Sure. But actively take on the newest threat of the month? Nah. You would have to heavily rework her character.

Remember she is only human and after a certain point, humans as legit threats as fighters ended early in DBZ.

If you want to make DBZ and later Super, less focused on Saiyans and more on humans and Piccolo then you have to create new stories for them. Like a mini saga like Garlic Junior saga but without Gohan and also better.

Or you give the humans a powerup that isn't a ass pull in the likes of Super.

[Thebestoftherest]

I think the problem is when you got characters who personality is fighters, and you only put them in the kitchen, like videl.

[Winter]

The problem here is Chi Chi. She wasn't a main character but a side one. Tien and Yamcha were until it became a Sayian only show. That basically ended once Goku showed up to fight Nappa.

Chi Chi being a fighter goes against her character. She is a mother first. She wants to protect Gohan and drive him to not be a fighter but a scholar of some kind. She initially let up with Goten but in Super she seems to want the same for him as well. The whole show is about that.

Whereas Bulma gives Trunks alot of slack. Maybe due to Vegeta but also because she is different from Chi Chi.

Yes, at one point Chi Chi was probably the most powerful female until 18 showed up.

Chi Chi would not go to Namek of Goku was still injured. She would have not gone with Krillin to Namek leaving both Gohan and Goku on Earth. She may be powerful but she isn't even in the same league as Yajirobe.

I can buy into Chi Chi coming in to the battlefield to go save Goku and Gohan against Vegeta. I can buy that. I can even buy into maybe taking Yajirobe's place in this case. He was always a joke character anyway.

But going to Namek with Krillin in place of Bulma? Doesn't make sense. Bulma is the tech wizard driving a alien ship.

Have her train? Sure. But actively take on the newest threat of the month? Nah. You would have to heavily rework her character.

Remember she is only human and after a certain point, humans as legit threats as fighters ended early in DBZ.

If you want to make DBZ and later Super, less focused on Saiyans and more on humans and Piccolo then you have to create new stories for them. Like a mini saga like Garlic Junior saga but without Gohan and also better.

Or you give the humans a powerup that isn't a ass pull in the likes of Super.

I mean, you're not wrong and I do like the idea that Chi-Chi just wanting her sons to have a better life then just being a fighter. However, my argument isn't really to move her up into main characters statues but just to give her more to do.

To switch gears though, there is the question of her potential role in the Saiyan Invasion Arc. TBH I would not want to remove Yajirobe from the story, rather I would split the difference.

The overall idea of this is after defeating Earth's strongest heroes, which included Goku, the ones to defeat Vegeta was Krillin (who lost to at least 2 of the people who already died) Gohan (who doesn't like fighting) Yajirobe (an obese man who has no powers) and Goku (who's body is currently broken). The idea here is Vegeta is not defeated by the strongest heroes but the weaker ones and the strongest one among them is the one that was already defeated.

Including Chi-Chi would add to that as she is, factually speaking, weaker then the Z Fighters. I would have it where Yajirobe cuts off Vegeta's tale but is then knocked out soon after and it's Chi-Chi (who's been running to get to the others to help soon after she learned where the others were) that fights off Vegeta before Gohan turns into the Ozaru. She still loses and is badly injured but no worse then anyone else.

Her showing up at the 11nth hour and buying her son the time he needs to transform (though she doesn't know that as she's just fighting to defend her child and husband) would give her an awesome moment all to herself without undercutting anyone else. Win Win.

[McAvoy]

I think the problem is when you got characters who personality is fighters, and you only put them in the kitchen, like videl.

Vidal was. Had a whole mini arc where she was protecting a city. Then Super made her into a house wife. I don't even think she has a job herself. Yeah she has Mr Satan's money and may not need to work. But her whole character was killed in Super.

Chi Chi on the other hand may have been trained and may have been strong, but she wasn't a fighter. Think about her first appearances in OG Dragonball. She wasn't a fighter.

It is true there is a big time lack of female characters in the show. Future Adult 2.0 Mai? From the Future Trunks arc? She did lead the human resistence but relied alot on Trunks.

I suppose if I were to remake Dragonball I would have at least added a female character that was a fighter. No gender swapping but just an addition. Even then, she would eventually become a background character once it became a Saiyan only show.

18 was sidelined only until for the Tournament of Power. But she did have her moments. Like fighting during the 25th World Tournament. That was cool.

[Winter]

I think the problem is when you got characters who personality is fighters, and you only put them in the kitchen, like videl.

Vidal was. Had a whole mini arc where she was protecting a city. Then Super made her into a house wife. I don't even think she has a job herself. Yeah she has Mr Satan's money and may not need to work. But her whole character was killed in Super.

Chi Chi on the other hand may have been trained and may have been strong, but she wasn't a fighter. Think about her first appearances in OG Dragonball. She wasn't a fighter.

It is true there is a big time lack of female characters in the show. Future Adult 2.0 Mai? From the Future Trunks arc? She did lead the human resistence but relied alot on Trunks.

I suppose if I were to remake Dragonball I would have at least added a female character that was a fighter. No gender swapping but just an addition. Even then, she would eventually become a background character once it became a Saiyan only show.

18 was sidelined only until for the Tournament of Power. But she did have her moments. Like fighting during the 25th World Tournament. That was cool.

Hot take but I think Broly Second Coming is a bit underrated mainly because it's a film that's more about Vidal then anyone else. Sure Trunks and Goten are on the posters but it's Vidal's story for the most part. I even like the fact that she manages to survive her encounter, she doesn't beat him, she isn't even able to hit him but the fact that she's survives as long as she does is kinda awesome in and of itself.

There's also Bio-Broly which is a pretty solid Lower Decks episode which focuses more on 18, Mr. Satan, Trunks, Goten and Krillin. It falls apart as soon as Broly shows up but before that it's pretty solid and fun. I love the fact that 18 is shown to be the head of the household in this film with Krillin being the one who stays with the kid at home.

I don't really think you need to add a new character but better utilize the characters you already have.

To go back to a point I made at the start of this I don't think Toriyama was sexist or anything because when you look at the male characters of the show it's really no different.

The best example I can think of is honestly Gohan. While you may call DB the Saiyan show a more accurate title would be the Goku and Vegeta show because once a character either does their definitive cool moment they're pretty much out of the series and Gohan is a great example of that. After the Cell Saga Gohan took on the role of main character before Toriyama kinda got board of him and brought back Goku and after the midway point of the Buu Saga Gohan became a secondary character and hasn't left that role. It wouldn't be until the Super Hero Saga where he was given any real significance.

And even then he was A) Still playing second fiddle to other characters (Piccolo and Pan) and B) the saga just kinda retreaded his iconic Super Saiyan 2 transformation.

Even Trunks and Goten are rather minor characters when you get down to it with Trunks only getting slightly more development thanks to his... odd relationship with Mai and that again is kind of a odd talking point.

Tien is another good example as the first villain turned hero who came in strong before just kinda fizzling out and only getting one truly awesome moment throughout the rest of the series. The problem here isn't really that this becomes the Saiyan show the problem is Toriyama over uses Goku and Vegeta. Kinda like how in Batman, the Joker has gotten to much focus as has his relationship with Batman is often main talking point leaving other characters to the wayside with only a few exceptions.

One of the reasons I love Wayne Family Adventures so much is how it explored the Batfamily and even gave more focus to lesser known villains. It took a whole year for Joker to show up which was a cameo via flashbacks (and we didn't even get a good look at him) and full 3 years before he came into the series proper as the main villain.

Taking the reboot concept out of the discussion for a moment I think what Dragon Ball needs to really do right now is to continue what they've just started.

The Super Hero Saga put Goku and Vegeta on the bench while putting focus on 3 well loved characters and making them the focus with the main characters being Piccolo and Pan. Sure a Saiyan is still involved but the real focus was on Piccolo. He's the one with an arc in that movie and his transformation is more talked about then Gohan's.

The High School arc set before SHS also gave put more focus on Trunks and Mai along with Goten.

I get the feeling that Toriyama was starting to get a little bored of the over use of Goku and Vegeta so started putting them on the back burner in favor of other characters he liked and was taking fans opinions into account.

Gohan's Beast Form screams Fan Appeasement and not in a good way but so does Orange Piccolo but that one works thanks to it giving a well loved character a chance to finally match the Saiyans and I can't help but wonder if other characters were/will get something similar.

And that can easily extended to the female characters of the show. They don't need to get powers ups or transformations (though it would be nice for Pan and Bra to become Super Saiyans, come on Toei Animation) just give them something to do.

Let's be honest if Dragon Ball is to have a full on reboot it's years off and even with Toriyama's passing (RIP) the series is going to go on for while yet, Japan is no different to the US in that regards.

I have to wonder if Toei Animation will either continue on with what Toriyama had started or go back to making this the Goku and Vegeta show. With the overall success of Super Hero it could go either way. I hope they do and it would be nice to answer a question even this forum brought up.

Whatever happened to Lunch?

[McAvoy]

I will just answer the last question until I have time to respond.

Lunch or Launch was simply forgotten about by Toriyama. Nothing bad about it. She was there in the 23rd Tournament afterall. Toriyama just simply forgot about her. He had these moments. I am not sure but if recall, the Toei anime didn't. Which is why she was included in the DBZ anime but not in the Manga. But I am not sure of this.

I do think, Dragonball will continue but they will be side quests or alternative storyline outside the Buu saga. I could even see such stories placed within the OG Dragonball timeline as well. Maintaining this fascination with Kid Goku.

But i doubt there will be stories on the humans like offhand, the three year timeframe between King Piccolo and the 23rd World Tournament. It would explain some stuff. Krillin and Yamcha learning to fly. Yamcha's scars. Etc.