Ghostbusters (2016) Reboot: Does Anyone Actually Remember This?

[Nealithi]

Rey is technically not a Mary Sue - that's an author-insert character who is skilled at everything and has no flaws or detectable limits.

Rey IS an overly-skilled character that acquires powers without effort, difficulty, or even time spent between discovery and mastery. It's not so much that she conveniently discovers powers, I feel, but that their discovery isn't handled well. The famous scene where she first uses the Jedi Mind Trick presents it as something he's intentionally doing even if she shouldn't have any understanding of it, when it would have made far more sense for her to have done it completely by accident.

What's weird is that Disney has avoided this in their other medias like in The Owl House. Luz has to learn how to use magic and she's been shown to be outclassed by just about everyone else in the main cast with a few exceptions and those she has defeated she's done through hard work and clever thinking.

Luz did not learn her first spell until the 4th episode and it took 8 episodes after that to learn her next one. The power difference is REALLY shown in Agony of a Witch and, well just watch, time stamp 2:21


youtu.be/aIEeGyd3EOU

Contrast this with Rey who, after 5 or 10 minutes of learning that she has the Force is able to use a Jedi Mind trick, Force Pull and best Kylo Ren in a Lightsaber Duel. Rey does in minutes what took other character years to learn and this is never explained or elaborated on, Rey is just good at this.

To take another example from a series I've praised several times, She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, Adora's skills in using her magic aren't that impressive and most of what she does is more about her using her combat training that's she's learned over the years. She's a gifted hand to hand fighter and is trained in just about every weapon but her use of She-Ra's magic is VERY limited and she only manages to stay alive because she is the most powerful of the Princesses.

On top of that, keep in mind that Adora and Luz have had her fair share of loses while Rey has never really lost... anything. She's a more skilled pilot then Poe, a better fighter then Finn and she is skilled in machines and hacking so BB8 is useless. And, again, she's better in the Force then anyone else in the Entire Series. Yoda isn't as powerful as her.

Again, in stories like The Owl House, Amphibia, Raya and the Last Dragon, Frozen and pretty much every other resent Disney Princess film Disney HAS done a good job at writing competent, yet flawed, female characters... So, WTF is going on with their live-action films?

I think your answer is the difference of medium and the writers themselves.

Longer version. As I know has been mentioned on these forums before. You can and should stretch things out on episodic TV. DCAU versus the DC movies is good example. With TV you can spread things out over a wider time. But a movie has to be compressed with a beginning, middle, and an end between 90 - 120 minutes. That is 2-3 live action show episodes or 4 - 6 animated show episodes.
The different writers also means a different outlook on how something should be seen. There is a reason the DCAU Superman and Batman are held up as Icons while the movie versions fall short.

Now the Rey thing with her abilities. I think if I wanted to show strength but not skill. She should use too much power in things. Attempting to use force pull yanks far more than she wants. Force suggestion leaves the trooper a vegetable. And what she needs is to learn control. But the directors treat power as skill. So the person with powerful chi, can just pickup a sword and be perfect with it, even though they never saw a sword before in their life. Type of thing.

[McAvoy]

I don't know. Luke didn't really accomplish much before his training with Yoda as far as Force feats. He barely was able to Force grab his lightsaber for example.

Disney would have had Rey not even get captured in that scene. She would have split second kill the beast, and then wear its hide walking back to the base.

[clearspira]

I don't know. Luke didn't really accomplish much before his training with Yoda as far as Force feats. He barely was able to Force grab his lightsaber for example.

Disney would have had Rey not even get captured in that scene. She would have split second kill the beast, and then wear its hide walking back to the base.

Yup. And what people forget about the Sequels is that TFA and TLJ takes place over a single week. She goes from a desert rat to killing Snoke with his own blade... IN A WEEK.

ANH and ESB takes place over four years. And in that time Luke goes from basic telepathy and precognition to barely moving his lightsaber six feet.

The idea that Rey isn't a Mary Sue baffles me.

[Winter]

I don't know. Luke didn't really accomplish much before his training with Yoda as far as Force feats. He barely was able to Force grab his lightsaber for example.

Disney would have had Rey not even get captured in that scene. She would have split second kill the beast, and then wear its hide walking back to the base.

Yup. And what people forget about the Sequels is that TFA and TLJ takes place over a single week. She goes from a desert rat to killing Snoke with his own blade... IN A WEEK.

ANH and ESB takes place over four years. And in that time Luke goes from basic telepathy and precognition to barely moving his lightsaber six feet.

The idea that Rey isn't a Mary Sue baffles me.

Uh, Rey didn't kill Snoke, Kylo did and Rey was getting trashed by Snoke as she never once got a hit on him. It's one of the few ideas I actually liked in TLJ as it showed Rey wasn't all powerful and was outclassed which was also highlighted in her fight with Luke who was clearly a better fighter then her as she only "Won" when she used the lightsaber.

Mind you, the issue that she learned all this in one week is a problem and while Luke and Snoke were powerful then her, neither defeated her as Rey used the Lightsaber which meant Luke did basically lose and Snoke died soon after he showed how powerful he was. It's not that Rey is a Mary Sue, because she has her fair share of screw-ups the issue is Rey isn't allowed to fail.

In my suggestion for a Sequel to TDST was to reveal that Rey really is just a nobody not related to anyone and worse, she was just a means to kill the Skywalker clan and this would be revealed to Rey after she suffered a defeat in battle with injuries so severe that she would lose an arm and a leg. In the end Rey becomes catatonic as the trauma she's suffered, both physically and mentally, has made her lose her sense of identity.

Now broken, Rey will have to build herself back up in order to discover and except who she is. A character without development or depth is a character that no one can connect to which has become evident with how little anyone has talked about Rey over the years.

[Frustration]

It's not even a question of Rey being good, it's that she's good at techniques she should know nothing about!

In the movie, Rey is clearly *attempting* the Jedi Mind Trick. It's very different than if she simply panicked and did it by accident. In a way, it's just like being given Luke's old lightsaber and told the explanation for how it was acquired is a long story that ends up never being told. It's sloppy storytelling.

[McAvoy]

I think if they didn't want to go through same journey as Luke, going from a desert rat/farmer to a Jedi Knight, then they could have showed that Rey actually used her Force abilities while on Jaku before she leaves the planet.

Not an expert, but like being able to use Force Push, Pull and maybe some Force Jumps.

I think also show more of Kylo's abdomen wound hindering him. Like she kicks him there at one point causing him to fall down. It would be cool of Kylo diving deepering into the Dark Side (yellow eyes) to keep himself on his feet.

Small changes really.

[clearspira]

I don't know. Luke didn't really accomplish much before his training with Yoda as far as Force feats. He barely was able to Force grab his lightsaber for example.

Disney would have had Rey not even get captured in that scene. She would have split second kill the beast, and then wear its hide walking back to the base.

Yup. And what people forget about the Sequels is that TFA and TLJ takes place over a single week. She goes from a desert rat to killing Snoke with his own blade... IN A WEEK.

ANH and ESB takes place over four years. And in that time Luke goes from basic telepathy and precognition to barely moving his lightsaber six feet.

The idea that Rey isn't a Mary Sue baffles me.

Uh, Rey didn't kill Snoke, Kylo did and Rey was getting trashed by Snoke as she never once got a hit on him. It's one of the few ideas I actually liked in TLJ as it showed Rey wasn't all powerful and was outclassed which was also highlighted in her fight with Luke who was clearly a better fighter then her as she only "Won" when she used the lightsaber.

Mind you, the issue that she learned all this in one week is a problem and while Luke and Snoke were powerful then her, neither defeated her as Rey used the Lightsaber which meant Luke did basically lose and Snoke died soon after he showed how powerful he was. It's not that Rey is a Mary Sue, because she has her fair share of screw-ups the issue is Rey isn't allowed to fail.

BTW, like hyperspace ramming which breaks Star Wars space combat, that Snoke death scene broke Star Wars lightsaber combat. So you're telling me that at any point in this entire series, you can just turn the lightsaber on with your mind and slice someone in half? Then why EVER get into straight combat with someone? Just walk up behind them and turn their lightsaber on when it is still on their belt.

What were Rey's screw-ups again? I'm interested. You say there were a lot but I cannot think of any. Certainly none that the script itself agrees was a screw up.

[Winter]

BTW, like hyperspace ramming which breaks Star Wars space combat, that Snoke death scene broke Star Wars lightsaber combat. So you're telling me that at any point in this entire series, you can just turn the lightsaber on with your mind and slice someone in half? Then why EVER get into straight combat with someone? Just walk up behind them and turn their lightsaber on when it is still on their belt.

What were Rey's screw-ups again? I'm interested. You say there were a lot but I cannot think of any. Certainly none that the script itself agrees was a screw up.

Okay, first of all lightsabers are activated by pressing a button on the hilt so being able to turn it on with your mind isn't breaking any lore or combat. The stupid there is more then Snoke, who was READING KYLO'S MIND, couldn't tell that Kylo was about to activate the saber that was right next to him. I just assumed that Jedi can sense when someone would try to activate the blade and can stop it because it's a small action and the reason Snoke didn't do it was because the script said so. It's more of a lore break that Snoke didn't read Kylo's mind while he was reading it because Johnson stories are written with the idea that everyone is an idiot, that's not a criticism it's stated fact.

The Holdo Maneuver and Lightspeed Skipping, on the other hand IS lore breaking because it ignores what's been established about how Lightspeed works for the sake of cool visuals. They're stupid and I hate them.

As for Rey's screw-ups, she decided to trust in Kylo Ren over Luke who is an established murderer based solely on the fact that he said that he was the victim on all this and Rey decided that was enough to take his word over Luke's because Luke was being a bit of a jerk. Rey gave into her anger and killed Kylo in a moment of anger. And she headed straight to Palpatine and nearly got everyone killed and almost possessed by Palpatine because the plot says she needs to do this because it's an idiot script.

The problem here is the writers don't let Rey learn from these mistakes and just brush it off on the grounds that character development and growth is a waste of time that would distract from the action scenes and navel gazing.

Like I said, if you're going to criticize something do it right. Watching the thing, think over the thing and THEN talk about the thing. Even if you don't like it watch again just to make sure the facts are straight. Rey did screw up, didn't kill Snoke and she doesn't learn or grow from any of this.

[Nealithi]

BTW, like hyperspace ramming which breaks Star Wars space combat, that Snoke death scene broke Star Wars lightsaber combat. So you're telling me that at any point in this entire series, you can just turn the lightsaber on with your mind and slice someone in half? Then why EVER get into straight combat with someone? Just walk up behind them and turn their lightsaber on when it is still on their belt.

What were Rey's screw-ups again? I'm interested. You say there were a lot but I cannot think of any. Certainly none that the script itself agrees was a screw up.

Okay, first of all lightsabers are activated by pressing a button on the hilt so being able to turn it on with your mind isn't breaking any lore or combat. The stupid there is more then Snoke, who was READING KYLO'S MIND, couldn't tell that Kylo was about to activate the saber that was right next to him. I just assumed that Jedi can sense when someone would try to activate the blade and can stop it because it's a small action and the reason Snoke didn't do it was because the script said so. It's more of a lore break that Snoke didn't read Kylo's mind while he was reading it because Johnson stories are written with the idea that everyone is an idiot, that's not a criticism it's stated fact.

The Holdo Maneuver and Lightspeed Skipping, on the other hand IS lore breaking because it ignores what's been established about how Lightspeed works for the sake of cool visuals. They're stupid and I hate them.

As for Rey's screw-ups, she decided to trust in Kylo Ren over Luke who is an established murderer based solely on the fact that he said that he was the victim on all this and Rey decided that was enough to take his word over Luke's because Luke was being a bit of a jerk. Rey gave into her anger and killed Kylo in a moment of anger. And she headed straight to Palpatine and nearly got everyone killed and almost possessed by Palpatine because the plot says she needs to do this because it's an idiot script.

The problem here is the writers don't let Rey learn from these mistakes and just brush it off on the grounds that character development and growth is a waste of time that would distract from the action scenes and navel gazing.

Like I said, if you're going to criticize something do it right. Watching the thing, think over the thing and THEN talk about the thing. Even if you don't like it watch again just to make sure the facts are straight. Rey did screw up, didn't kill Snoke and she doesn't learn or grow from any of this.

I think the light saber thing was Kylo was trying damned hard to mask what he was doing by paralleling his movements to what he was doing with Luke/Rey's light saber next to Snoke. Because Snoke was following things but not catching meaning till it was too late. I actually thought that part was clever. I thought some of the stunts with turn the light saber off then on again to catch people unaware was clever. Kylo and Rey besting the entire room full of guards was odd. But then the whole room looked like a cgi back drop not a room. So it felt weird the whole time.

Like you said though the just turn on someone's light saber on their belt likely would not work because a jedi would sense it coming and avoid it.

[McAvoy]

Come to think of it, doesn't Jedi kinda detect when someone uses the Force? I vaguely remembering something like that. Probably wrong. I don't know.