Ghostbusters (2016) Reboot: Does Anyone Actually Remember This?

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Well, I think we have established that, love it or hate it, many people did actually remember the 2016 reboot. =V

[Frustration]

The idea that Rey isn't a Mary Sue baffles me.

A Mary-Sue is an author-insert character. Rey is clearly meant to be an audience-insert character.

It's the same basic problem as with all the "strong women" who aren't actually strong, but are aggressive and throw their influence around roughly. A problem with writers, and with the intended audience.

Give me Ivanova any day.

[McAvoy]

The idea that Rey isn't a Mary Sue baffles me.

A Mary-Sue is an author-insert character. Rey is clearly meant to be an audience-insert character.

It's the same basic problem as with all the "strong women" who aren't actually strong, but are aggressive and throw their influence around roughly. A problem with writers, and with the intended audience.

Give me Ivanova any day.

I half agree. She was written for girls and women that is without a doubt. But her being a Mary Sue, has more to do with the writers, producers and possibly the directors not willing to give her a real story arc. Some would say cowardice, some would say laziness and others would say just bad handling of the character. After all, she was like this through all three movies with two different directors.

Of course, there is problem which also comes from Ghostbusters, but also some other female led movies, that if you don't like the movie you are a sexist man baby. Recently we saw that with the new Charlie's Angels too.

[clearspira]

The idea that Rey isn't a Mary Sue baffles me.

A Mary-Sue is an author-insert character. Rey is clearly meant to be an audience-insert character.

It's the same basic problem as with all the "strong women" who aren't actually strong, but are aggressive and throw their influence around roughly. A problem with writers, and with the intended audience.

Give me Ivanova any day.

I half agree. She was written for girls and women that is without a doubt. But her being a Mary Sue, has more to do with the writers, producers and possibly the directors not willing to give her a real story arc. Some would say cowardice, some would say laziness and others would say just bad handling of the character. After all, she was like this through all three movies with two different directors.

Of course, there is problem which also comes from Ghostbusters, but also some other female led movies, that if you don't like the movie you are a sexist man baby. Recently we saw that with the new Charlie's Angels too.

Looking back to TFA, there was a moment, fleeting as it was, where we saw the character that she could have been: a desert rat with a good heart who rescues a droid in need. That moment where she gives up more rations than she has probably ever seen in her life to protect BB-8 works very well. As does the scene where she is cleaning some equipment and notices an old woman doing the same thing, the implication being that Rey is growing old before her time. As does the scene where she finds a father figure in Han only to be constantly rebuffed by him. The building blocks were there for a memorable character.
I kind of wonder actually if she would have been better off having no Force powers at all in TFA, only to gain them when she trains with Luke in TLJ.

[Frustration]

I kind of wonder actually if she would have been better off having no Force powers at all in TFA, only to gain them when she trains with Luke in TLJ.

Yes, after all, Luke has virtually no powers in ANH, just a Force Sensitivity that enhances his piloting skills. And that's all - he doesn't show any other especial talents or skills, and he nearly gets killed by that sociopathic alien in the bar before Obi-Wan 'disarms' it.

I remember Ken Hite and Robin Laws discussing the problems with the new movies, and Hite going to a lot of trouble to defend the depiction of Rey, saying that Luke was also a hyper-competent character... except that he wasn't. I never wanted to smack Hite upside the head as much as I did in that moment.

[Frustration]

I half agree. She was written for girls and women that is without a doubt. But her being a Mary Sue, has more to do with the writers, producers and possibly the directors not willing to give her a real story arc.

Again: I agree that she has no meaningful arc, is badly written, and is overly competent. But she's not a "Mary-Sue", because Mary-Sues are always authorial avatars. Rey is a badly-written heroine; audiences are often invited to perceive themselves in the role of hero, sometimes to the degree of making it a shallow power fantasy. That's what Rey is: instant competence.

One of the reasons there are so many accusations of "systemic discrimination", I firmly believe, is that people are told all their lives that they're competent and develop the expectation that they won't have to exert any extra effort to compete. Then they enter circumstances where they're expected to compete, don't receive automatic success, and believe that people must be working against them.

Rey is what the writers think female audience members want: instantly skilled and successful through innate talent.

[clearspira]

Here's a thought experiment: if Rey was a man, what about the script would change? How would the plot work differently if Rey had an outie instead of an innie? The answer of course is that it wouldn't. Very, VERY little hinges on her sex. But can you say the same for Anakin and Luke? No, because he needs to be Luke's dad and Luke needs to be Anakin's son for their relationship to work. The father daughter relationship simply is not the same as the father son relationship. You also cannot say the same about Han and Leia - the power dynamics in that relationship just wouldn't work the other way around.

Ripley's main motivation in Aliens was Newt. Sarah's main motivation in T2 was John. In both instances, both of these DEEPLY BELOVED strong female characters embody the strong feminine not the strong masculine. Women do not want to see perfect heroines or blokes with tits - they want to see characters that represent themselves on-screen. I'm not saying that this is the only way to do it, i'm saying that blank slates like Rey are boring to both sexes and demonstrates an amazing lack of understanding when it comes to the basic psychology of the audience.

There is also no fanservice in the Disney Star Wars trilogy - and I bring this up because women ALSO like fanservice. The likes of Rose in her dumpy jumpsuit and little boy haircut did them no favours because women do not want to look like that. If you look at images of Kellie Marie Tran in real life she is beautiful. It took real conscious effort to make Rose look that ugly.

[Frustration]

I assume she's made up in most photos. Could they have made her look good in coveralls? I don't think they have the talent, even starting with the very advantageous foundation that is Kellie Marie Tran.

Plus they didn't really give her anything to do - she's there to be seen, a diversity check-box, and that's it.

Wouldn't that have been an interesting movie? A young mechanic working in an obscure job for the new galactic government begins having strange visions and dreams she doesn't understand...

[McAvoy]

I half agree. She was written for girls and women that is without a doubt. But her being a Mary Sue, has more to do with the writers, producers and possibly the directors not willing to give her a real story arc.

Again: I agree that she has no meaningful arc, is badly written, and is overly competent. But she's not a "Mary-Sue", because Mary-Sues are always authorial avatars. Rey is a badly-written heroine; audiences are often invited to perceive themselves in the role of hero, sometimes to the degree of making it a shallow power fantasy. That's what Rey is: instant competence.

One of the reasons there are so many accusations of "systemic discrimination", I firmly believe, is that people are told all their lives that they're competent and develop the expectation that they won't have to exert any extra effort to compete. Then they enter circumstances where they're expected to compete, don't receive automatic success, and believe that people must be working against them.

Rey is what the writers think female audience members want: instantly skilled and successful through innate talent.

I know what you are saying. But she is every bit what you would think a character that is a Mary Sue would be.

She's a great pilot. She's a great mechanic. She can defeat Luke in z stick battle. She can instantly use the Force better than Luke. Everyone is calling out her name, everyone likes her. All that was left was her shagging half the cast including Chewie.

[Frustration]

And she's the sort of character the authors thought the audience would want to imagine themselves as. Instead of an authorial insertion character, she's meant to be an audience insertion character.

Like Harry Potter. I don't think he's what Rowling imagines she would like to be, but in many ways he's what she thought her readers would like to be. He does have some actual flaws and limitations, though - but consider that the flying broom football thing was clearly designed for him to be an instant champion.